Crit Rework #10876
Crit Rework #10876
Conversation
Fox-McCloud
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While I am not opposed to this change in principle, is now really the time to heap more changes/relearning on medbay when we have like a bazillion revival/medbay change PRs coming? Also, does this remove the use of painkillers like hydrocodone, morphine, etc. of preventing pain crit, or do they work to prevent the new shock state? |
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Paincrit is done. Paincrit was part of the old soft crit system. |
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You would be able to detect shock/failure/arrest with a health analyzer, right? |
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Yes. |
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I’m a fan for trying it out. |
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I know paincrit's done. I'm asking if the chems used to treat paincrit will be given a new use to compensate or have just been nerfed. |
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Neat! |
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Can you change the description from a stopped heart to Cardiac Arrithymia? |
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Vaguely reminds me of Bay's Brainmed system where the life of the patient is ultimately tied to the status of the brain. Is there any way of bringing someone back from braindeath with this system outside of cloning? |
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Strange reagent will bring them back, but they're likely to just die immediately after. Reviving people with strange reagent is going to be particularly difficult with this new system. Very involved, and very touch and go. |
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I don’t have a problem with the crit system, but if literally any other changes besides this go through to SR, it’s going to be a huge fuck you to vox and slime people. No defibs, no cloning, and SR is either removed or really hard to get and scarce. I’m still not a fan of this, because defibs have already been nerfed down to two minutes. That’s actually realistic in terms of how you can restart the stopped heart of a dead person, and I don’t see how removing their reviving functionality entirely is going to help anything. |
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Holy fuck this is gonna be sick At least now I get to wander around like that one clip of a dude who somehow walked for a bit after a bomb went off nearby. They definitely still died but I mean, not insta-ded or just laying about! |
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Agreeing with Book. This is actually a reasonable PR to give a nice trial run too. Provided no changes to SR are made, given it will now be more necessary than ever and use up pills faster while reviving people. This is actually quite interesting, I'd be willing to see it in action and it could prove a worth while change; again so long as SR isn't touched. At-least...not touching SR at first if you people still insist on 'nerfing' it. |
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Marked as DNM because this will require a bit of livetesting first for potential bugs. |
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As someone who started SS13 on Goon and has been playing a bit of Goon as of late, I will say this is one thing I wish more servers would adopt and glad there is a PR for it here as crit in most cases is just bland to say the least, can't wait to see it tested! |
code/datums/diseases/critical.dm
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| /datum/disease/shock | |||
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Could use buff/debuff framework for this? I mean we do have it.
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the system works better as a disease, as it will show up on medical HUDs. Also just the natural of progression/removal and having it died to reagents and based on stages? It's a perfect shoe-in---I'd have to re-create effectively the same systems for a status effect.
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| /mob/living/carbon/human/proc/do_cpr(mob/living/carbon/human/H) | |||
| if(H == src) | |||
| to_chat(src, "<span class='warning'>You cannot perform CPR on yourself!</span>") | |||
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WELL WHY THE HELL NOT?! THIS IS BS SHITAINER REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Agreed. Literally unplayable. Changed my mind. Do not merge ever.
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What do you mean I can't punch myself in the chest or run into a wall with enough force to compress my chest and kickstart my heart
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If going into shock is a disease will having a triple healing virus affect going into shock in any way since 3 is the max amount of diseases you can have? |
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Does this play nice with no breathing genes and viruses and implants? I would assume it bypasses these things |
That limits is only for advanced viruses.
Species that have no breathing by default are going to die at a threshold, so they use the old system. Having the breathless gene from genetics means you're going to still take brute damage from being in crit, still acquire shock, still acquire heart problems, and still roll for brain damage. You'll be a bit more durable, but still killable.
You're still slowed from having damage on you; the painkillers still reduce the slow from having damage. |
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Sorry if this has been touched on; I may have missed it. After reaching 200 damage and blacking out, is the succumb command still an option to ghost safely? |
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| species_traits = list(NO_BLOOD, NO_BREATHE, VIRUSIMMUNE, NOGUNS, NO_EXAMINE) | |||
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| dies_at_threshold = TRUE | |||
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I understand the change for other species, but why remove the abductor's heart and not have them use this new system? There's no difference medically between an abductor and a human as far as I know. Is this for balance reasons?
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They also have NO_BLOOD, which means the heart really has no reason to be there. It doesn't do anything; the flag prevents having a heart attack, which is a major component of the new crit system. They also have NO_BREATHE which is also problematic.
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I have played three whole rounds of medical with this system in place and I have made my descision |
Only thing I 100% agree with out of all the medbay PRs. This is the only SR change we need.
Not without fixing my sleepers first. Saline glucose isn't stabilizing patients fast enough. You want to get rid of the specialized chemicals in it, fine. I can see why. It makes surgeon and MD harder, but I'm good at those roles. I argued for hours in the Discord about how the changes to sleepers were redundant because actually shitty doctors use cryo tubes for everything and don't even know what half the things in a sleeper do. That said, being that the previous PR made all of medbay hinge on chemists- This nerf should be able to be compensated for in game with a good cryomix, right?
Seems like making the surgery kit smaller, might be a good idea? But bruise packs are easy to come by and work for a bajillion surgeries before they run out anyway. Canon - Bruise packs have a few bandaids and hundreds of little sheets of regenerative membrane in them for patching up organs.
Should be broken up into multiple entries for clarity. |
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re-adds the beakers and droppers to the medical vendors |
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Things to note after playing even more rounds of this
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It’s becoming normal now to see multiple cloning tubes. I’ve seen no effective change really, nothing possitive at least, I’m sorry to say. |
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The Changelog and OP needs to be revived so people have an easier way of seeing what all is changed and do not assume that what's there is the only thing changed. It'll give people an easier way to actually judge the PR as there's a lot of posts on this PR and the changes are spread out/not really well documented. |
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Tried it in action and I don't like it sorry. Just feels... dull... Cloning is the to go to option now. Getting into crit means you can still do stuf but die eventually and can't get back. So short term you can live longer, maybe get out of trouble. But long term you get punished harder. I liked the previous version where you go down when you're almost dead. Last game I played I had to kill all of security who responded to me because they kept standing up with 10 HP left (-90 HP). I dunno it just doesn't make the game better. |
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I've noticed it's much easier for me to close and walk away from the game 🤔 instead of wondering if I have a chance to survive I'm far more certain of my demise. I've had to employ the tactic of resting and playing dead more regularly because my character gets up and makes people think I'm still a threat (or something to be killed in the case of murderboners who don't finish the job) I've also avoided medical roles like the plague. I haven't had a good time of it recently but now I feel like the atmosphere is too tense to enjoy that sort of thing. Others must have caught on, too, as medbay and security population is abnormally low at roundstart during playtests (eg. completely bare ass empty on officers/doctors, only somewhat staffed by latejoiners a ways into the round) but I suppose that's to be expected? I regularly latejoin and avoid rounds with exceedingly poor staffing in those departments and have found this to be necessary, recently, only during newcrit playtests. I sincerely hope that won't be the case long-term as that is a symptom of reduced enjoyment in that part of the game which in turn negatively effects most others due to the nature of mortality and medbay. I have mixed feelings and significant apprehension, so my reaction to the parent post has been adjusted accordingly. |
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Small issues with this as addition. The cardiac failure thing is a virus and can be made into a culture. Unsure if you can infect others with the culture but hey. |
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I was very supportive of this initially, but little tweaks and changes along the way has pushed me the other way. As it stands, I don't support the PR in its current state, but feel it would be more viable with the following changes:
Please consider some adjustments back towards viability. I'm all for making medbay a little more interesting/challenging, and making crit more nuanced, but the additional changes feel heavy-handed and are ruining it, in my opinion. |
The timer doesnt even exist. Defibs dont res |
Oh you right. Ignore that bit 👀 |
I don't exactly agree with this if this is merged. Especially considering how hard it is already to treat newcrit patients. It's nonsensical to make something worse(I.E newcrit) then make something else even worse to compensate(I.E cloning). If this change does get merged I'm getting up a PR to re-add advanced kits ASAP. Either to medical or as a cargo crate. I have no idea why they were even removed. |
The reason cloning should take longer is that if this gets merged, cloning suddenly becomes the easiest solution to most problems. Building extra cloners and getting a ton of material would be simpler than fixing more complex medical problems. I think that would be lessened by some of my other suggestions, but I still feel the point stands. |
Isn't that the problem though? These changes make it so it is much much easier to just clone most people rather then trying to fix them. Would nerfing another system to parody a nerf really be necessary? Shouldn't it be the other way around, and not make the system so harsh so people use it? |
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Shazbot is right. The concept of nerfing a system that was made stronger by the nerfing of a different system is remarkably bad game design, and a poor choice for game health. This goes for all games. |
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I am mixed about the new system - and here is why. I like the idea of reworking crit, of making it more deadly and more serious, but it comes with a huge nerf to medical systems and makes the decision often just a two way street. Can I fix him fast? - Fix him fast This two-way approach to medical is partially due to players being lazy, and partially due to them just not knowing better, the chemist being trash or other unforeseen consequences. I had a few rounds where Fox was my Doctor, and I have seen in person that, if you know what you are doing, you can fix people without stuffing them into cloning. In addition, several times he fixed me up from things that I thought were a guaranteed death. Nevertheless, unfortunately not every player is like this. Personally, I would ask for more depth in the medical system. I have just taken a short look at TG station, and frankly, I know nothing about how their medical system works. However, the idea alone of brain damage that add random effects sounds far more advanced than what we have right now. I agree, medical should become more interesting, but personally, I would add more systems into the diagram of procedures. Example: Allow them to clone people, but - it might result in brain damage - and woops, person has now "Monophobia - The patient will become increasingly stressed when not in company of others, triggering panic reactions ranging from sickness to heart attacks." which needs to be treated as well. In addition: No system should be reliant on one factor. Currently, I feel like the chemist is too important. Destroy the cloner, kill the chemist (or chemist area) – Medbay is done. Back then they still had the defib as a last resort, but this path is now closed. Overall - the game is Semi Realistic - allowing us to bend the rules, reality, and time just enough. Because if Survival Games taught me anything: Realism is not always fun. |
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For the phobia/Brain Trauma system we would need some systme ports from TG probaly with thier quirk system. We just need someone to Actually do that.. |
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I am seeing some comments about the current Defib system being too damming though, would there be a compromise to that somewhere? |
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That color scheme hurts my eyes. ANYWAY, we did have some feedback saying that someone fox and i am sure anyone else who knows the system..played..and it actually worked. I really do not think its the system at fault here. |
Just because it works doesn't mean it's fit for this server. |
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Nobody asked for this, but ok. |
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Why doesnt this have the |
This is basically Goon's crit system, so all credit goes to Cogwerks, who was the primary designer around this.
In any event, I've wanted to do this for a long time. Our crit system isn't terribly fun or engaging. It's just kinda a case of you become really slow, then you lapse into hard crit and stare at a black screen until death. It's not terribly interesting for doctors, either, as treating someone who comes in tends to just be "treat underlying damage and send them on their way".
Either case, this crit system will completely turn that on its head. When you hit
0health, your vision will get blurry, you'll get lots of scary message, and you'll start rolling for a chance to lapse into shock. Your breathing will also become irregular. Shock is treated with saline solution.If shock is left untreated, you will then acquire the state of cardiac emergency. Here, it becomes even more difficult to breathe, and, if left untreated, your heart will stop. You can treat cardiac emergencies with either epinephrine or atropine.
A stopped heart requires a defib. Not shockingly (no pun intended), defibs are no longer tools for revival; they exist purely to jumpstart hearts. Stopped hearts behave like heart-attacks (paralysis, rapid O2 damage, and brain damage).
On that note, how do you die, you might ask? Well, there's no set point, in terms of overall damage. If you have 200 total damage, you're going to black out until you die/are saved, but otherwise, the point at which you die will either be when brain dies or randomly, weighted towards how much damage you currently have accumulated.
By now, there's a few of you who are wondering how this impacts other mobs, or even some species. Things like xenos, simple animals, and the likes all die like they did before. They accumulate so much damage, they lapse into hard crit, accumulate O2, then die (or in the case of simple mobs; they just die).
Some species do not work well with this new system, at all--as it's heavily dependent on organs and breathing. As such, some species will utilize the old crit system, lest they become unkillable. Currently Slimes, IPCs, Plasmamen and Diona die at specific thresholds (Antag/special species like shadow/shadowlings, skeletons, golems, and abductosr all die at thresholds as well). Of course, some of these species could lose their trait of no breathing and possess a heart, thus allowing them to be put on this new system, but that's kinda taking variety away...and it would really only work for Diona and Slimes
Other changes
🆑 Fox McCloud
add: Crit system completely rehashed; treating crit now requires multiple drug types and is strongly dependent on brain damage for death
del: Defibs no longer revive people
tweak: Corazone recipe removed (reagent remains)
/:cl: