Copied the 'space-immunity' property from Vox to IPCs #11672
Conversation
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I kind of want to downvote this but I also kind of agree with it. It they are robots then they should be okay in low atmosphere environments |
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IPCs have it hard enough already honestly they need any advantage they can get even if it鈥檚 a really absurd thing they won鈥檛 really be using often |
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I mean, do you think if we take a random complex machine like a computer and put it in space, it will work without issues? |
looks at cyborgs Yeaaaaah I think they'll be fiiiiiine |
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Congrats on your first pr! Not particularly involved in the decisionmaking process, but my rough feeling is that we're trying to move away from space proof as a racial benefit, because it's not that interesting and tends to attract powergamers. There's probably other ways (#8889 maybe?) to make them a little more compelling if using oldcrit is really that bad. |
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I'm in favor of a buff for IPCs in some way or another. This, or #8889 are good, though in an ideal (so not here!) world, it would be both. |
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I personally don't like #8889. They shouldn't be that easy to put back together. You get hurt, you should pay the price. IPCs pay that price very well |
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I have nothing against buffing IPCs, but I would like to see less spaceproof races, not more. |
Cyborgs are designed and built to operate on a space station by NT, it makes sense to spaceproof them. |
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Copy paste from my response to the post about this on the forum. IPC: 15 Karma
Cons:
Now lets look at this in comparison to vox. Pro:
Cons:
Neutral:
A vox's primary bonus is their ability to go into space without need for a suit, however they receive, in my opinion, one of the worst maluses for this (easier to break bones), along side a moderate 45 karma cost to acquire. Giving IPC more buffs should incur further penalties, to retain balance. |
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If you are going to space proof IPC, you need to bump the karma cost, but because of all the additional bonuses compared to other races, the cost would need to be a mark higher than 45. |
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Instead of just straight giving IPC space immunity, why not add in an upgrade option for them. |
We don't set karma costs based on how "OP" a species is. Not sure where you got that idea. Then again, vox/plasma are powergamer magnets so I can see how that misconception could arise. I think the point you're trying to make is that IPC would be "vox+" after this change. The list doesn't really help you make that argument, because the impact of each of the things you list isn't analyzed or explained. For example, the author of this PR says that old crit is a bad thing, while you put it under pro. So let's stop trying to break everything down as if this is a competitive PVP game where everything takes place in a controlled environment. |
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@Imotepchief Additionally, them operating under Old Crit is not strictly a positive, that itself is a double-edged sword. There ARE perks to still being on old crit, but races that operate under New Crit also, on average, last substantially longer then those still on Old. That needs to be factored in to the weight of things as well. Personally, I'm not sure IPC need to be Spaceproof. It would make a measure of sense to me that they are, but I don't think it's the buff they need or would be best served by. To be honest, I'd rather see IPC lose their "Blood" and go back to not having to need oil in their veins. It's the combination of being horribly easy to damage, limbs pop off at moments notice and still able to bleed out that makes playing an IPC an... upsetting experience. The high damage multiplier makes it that much easier to make them bleed in the first place, and a robot having to worry about 'blood' is just.... weird. With Lavaland now in place, IPC miners are essentially in a place that can be 1-shot by some mobs (Mostly megafauna) So I do Feel that might be due pulling back a little on some prior nerfs. |
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I think that IPCs being spaceproof would make sense due to how they're basically built with cyborg parts and I'm not even sure most of them are sealed largely in a way to cause pressure problems; its just like a hunk of metal in space, it wouldnt get crushed into a pulp from pressure, or lack of. Additionally, while they do have bonuses such as breathing and toxin resistances- which are advantageous (but also try make a toaster needing to breathe make sense)- though the primary damage is burn and brute on the station an this unfortunately makes machines incredibly vulnerable to pretty much every single threat the station has. Also, being in old crit isn't always good for them- with IPC you're either fully dead before you can grab your welder out of your bag or it takes forever for you to die due to being left totally alone in space or whatever. In the end, if people still have concerns about making them naturally space proof despite how absolutely awful they are in any kind of confrontation, I think that the idea of having titanium to upgrade them or some kind of research to otherwise do the same thing would be a good idea, so they would have to essentially seek out robotics to gain the ability. Greytiders wouldn't be so aware of it to abuse it and it would mean it would be something IPC would have to actively do. Related to above though, this or blood should definitely be adjusted; as I mentioned before, brute and burn really make up 70% of the damage it feels like and the rest of it is from spiders or getting spaced so the extra damage really does screw them over pretty hard. On the blood side of things if IPC are broken up and have to be put back together (which happens way more than I'd like to admit) it's a pain to deal with the sheer lack of oil, especially when you're on the table and the new roboticist decides to get you back up to 560u 5u at a time... TL;DR: I'm in favour, or at least for something to be added to robotics to upgrade them with the ability if that would be more viable overall. Also, should be this or "blood" changes either way. |
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I just want to mention that IPCs have basically received two big nerfs, one was in the form of blood, adding in a mechanic that both can harm players, and offers no benefit to Said players, and the other being an indirect nerf, in the form of everyone else getting upwards of 5x their original health, which IPCs already had effectively ~66% of the original health. If this is the only proposed buff, I don鈥檛 see why not, unless someone would like to add their counter PR. |
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To be honest, I don't know why exactly IPC have an oil requirement, when borgs, who make oil spills when damaged, don't, but I think there should be more options available to IPC, so that they can tailor themselves in round, to whatever task they intend to take up, much like how a borg can receive upgrade modules, IPC's should get access to non-cosmetic body modifications, maybe even capable of hotswapping limbs, and the ability to implant robotic limbs that are not attached to them. Just throwing that out there, bring like a self tinkering option to IPC, make them more entertaining. |
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Highly against this - I really don't like the idea of more spaceproof races, especially the secondly most played race. IPC tweaks I'm more interested in being involved around their health and relation to NewCrit. |
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@Imotepchief I could definitely see a system like that being enjoyable, sort of like an IPC alternative to genetics or virology, and if balance concerns are... well a concern, then it could something with a price tag. Like maybe packing on armor plating to make the IPC in question sturdier, but it also comes with slight slow-down (Akin to a hardsuit) |
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I'm against spaceproof. Space-resistant? Sure. Taking less damage in space would be fine with me. |
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A lot of misinformation and half truths being tossed about this thread. I will say IPCs were in a good spot before the constant brute damage in critical + oil for blood change went through (neither of which were needed and should have been reverted a long time ago), so I will say if those are here to say IPCs do need a buff, but this isn't it. I'd much rather have #8889 since IPCs being spaceproof doesn't make sense IC or OOC. Cardboards tubes and tinfoil around a Raspberry Pi shoved into the cereal box that is their torso doesn't lend well for space proof machinery, I liked the old Bay IPC concept where they took no brute damage but took burn damage overtime if they didn't have a cooler suit on them when in vacuum/low pressure environments. More space proof species just makes space proof less interesting. Giving something that plays more to IPC lore and characteristics would be much more desirable. |
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Protip: Dont use your master Other than that I am neutral on this PR |
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Yeah. No. |
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Can we agree that there are other species that don't really need the spaceproof-ness either? How are Vox space-proof if they need to breath nitrogen? The other space-proof races (the only two I could find are Diona and Plasmamen) don't need to breath (Plasmaman being contained in their suit and all) and for some reason the Vox traders from old times used spacesuits for whatever reason. I think I'd trade Vox space-proof for IPC space-proof if having too many (read: three currently out of thirteen) is too much. I think it makes more sense |
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I agree with neca, it'd be better if we worked on making all races on the same level as those with new crit instead of giving them a kind of duct taped fix that doesn't really solve much |
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Idea: IPC crit could be tied to positronic brain damage rather than overall health. That way they get more "effective health". It would also make sense lorewise since there's no reason damage to the chassis should cause the positronic brain to stop responding. Also, oil should just slow down IPCs, as oil is just for joints and not really a vital liquid. |
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I don't think IPCs need space immunity tbh, that's a bit overkill. Tay's idea seems neat, however. |
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I think a bit of resistance towards EMPs in order to prevent unfair instakills is the only thing IPCs need. Good first PR tho, I hope we can see this idea getting developed and the species get a balance patch to make them less frustrating to play. |
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Crit status being tied more to posi over chassis damage is something that I'd like to see actually, being in crit because you lost a couple of limbs and your body is a little dented doesn't make sense when all your internal components are 100% damage free. Being unable to move without limbs or being popped out of your chassis unable to move or speak, but not dead is punishment in itself. Actually just let posi have their speakers on by default, being stuck and ignored in a corridor for 30 mins bc you don't want to ghost in case someone does find you sucks. The kind of 'upgrade workshop' idea would be exceptionally cool for IPC to have as an alternative to organic options. Takes materials and research, but as a result it allows them to gain upgrades that give boosts to things mentioned above like maybe small EMP resist where you're in heavy crit instead of instadeath (which makes it more where you are when it happens than being able to just be dropped- if it's just you and the antag you're done anyway but it means people have a chance to save), pressure resistance to some level and yeah I like the armour that bulks you up but makes you slower since honestly we're tin cans anyway. There are probably way more ideas we can think up that would be cool, pretty balanced additions to the list that could both maybe cover general (like EMP) or more job related. IPC can't even fit in as many implants as organics despite them being full to bursting of squishy flesh so something that works around that would be nice. I don't know if IPC will get spaceproof outright, but you may have started a really nice avalanche of ideas to balance them more in their own way so good job yo. |
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IIRC we intentionally changed it from allowing IPC posibrains to speak so new tator players wouldn't get fucked over |
#8784 has been proposed before, but it didn't seem popular then and I'm not sure it's wanted now, even with the crit changes. Nothing stopping you from reopening it, but racial "balance" is always one of those tricky areas where you never know what kind of ideas would work. |
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I don't even know how to mention in github, I would totally support the reopening of that PR tho but as you said is not wanted by none of the headmins or Maintainers so we have a very small chance of it getting merged. |
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I am deeply skeptical of buffing IPCs. I'm even more skeptical of buffing them by giving them space immunity. Space is meant to be dangerous, and having a good chunk of player characters be immune to it is the wrong direction for the game to go in. It also results in gameplay that is not fun. IPC flees to space? Tough luck, you can't chase them. It is already fairly common for vox to flee into space to prevent anyone following them - I definitely don't want another race doing this. The "lore" argument for this PR isn't valid. While I agree that it isn't intuitive that metal creatures take damage in space... that's only because we don't understand space intuitively. There's actually quite a lot of damaging cosmic radiation that is blocked by our atmosphere. For example, UV light is very damaging to humans, but its blocked by our atmosphere so we don't have to worry about it. Unprotected in space, we'd take damage from it. It isn't a great stretch to think that unshielded electronics in an IPC would suffer the same from cosmic radiation in space. As to the idea that IPCs need this buff because newcrit gave other races a lot more health... maybe it did, but IPCs are so strong/popular that I'm still skeptical that they need a buff. To give just one example, IPCs do not have blood. That means vampires, one of the most common antags, completely ignore them - which dramatically increases their survival rate. Of the three most common antags (traitors, vamps, changelings) IPCs are effectively immune to a third of them. Yet, with IPCs, this huge advantage is seldom mentioned because its just one of the long list of things that IPCs are immune to, or don't have to worry about. If you really want this PR to pass, you need to individually talk with the heads/maints that object to it (Neca, Fox, myself) and try to convince us. It will take more than the thread you've posted. As things stand, this PR is probably going to be declined due to the fact that half of the heads/maints are against it as they do not believe it is appropriate to give IPCs space immunity. |
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I agree with Fox on this one. (First time for everything) Space Immunity for robots is not a great look. It's a bad enough problem with shitbirds, and I think extending that to another race is a mistake. As weak as Paradise's IPCs are, this is not the right step. I think leaning on "Easier to repair" is the better flavor choice than this. If you want lore: IPCs are made to work within atmos. Ergo, they need air in order to thermoregulate their internal components. A vacuum does not disperse temperature well.
Advocating for either of my previous PRs on this one, chief. |
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. That said, again, I don't think Space proof is something IPCs need. I'd much rather see their "Oil for blood" aspect removed or the tedious aspect of repairing every single aspect of an EMP'd IPC reduced. Essentially I'd rather IPC actually follow through on "Easy to break, easy to repair" as the last couple of touches on IPCs have focused more on making them... perhaps not harder to fix, but definitely more tedious. (surgically fixing every single individual limb/organ is just.... Mmm.) |
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I object to this, on the grounds that I don't think IPCs need further buffs. |
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While I don't disagree that space proofing is a little much, do you think it's fair @Kyep to have one race with 1/5th the health of the others, while still having to have both "broken bone" surgery and blood transfusions, because IPCs still need to have "Broken bone" surgery, and blood transfusions while enjoying less than a 1/3rd of the potential health, while also suffering instant death in some situations, which quite a few antags can force. |
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i'm with @shazbot194 easy to fix doesn't mean much if you die before you can even fix yourself. The massive health difference between the races as well really sucks and I think the balance for all of them intended to have at least similar health/crit |
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@Kyep have you played as an IPC recently? Their strengths are largely meaningless, especially when weighed against their cons. They take damage while in critical, and unlike the organic races they are balanced against (the only reason they got critical damage) they can't be stabilized to prevent further damage while they are being treated. The damage types they are immune to are so rare they are hardly worth talking about. Whens the last time you died from Radiation damage? Genetic Damage? Odds if you can even come up with an example, it was induced by a traitor, meaning they had cheaper and easier options to deal with an IPC anyways.
Please show me these stats. Every survey I've seen and round I have observed has Vulps far more common than IPCs. Diona heal themselves naturally for standing in sunlight. Literally every organic race heals themselves by consuming nutriment, available in every vending machine. Every race except IPC benefits from healing medication, meaning a single patch of Synthflesh will not only outheal a welder and cable coil, but it will do it faster and in one click. Whens the last time you saw an IPC wizard slink off into maint nearly in the red after being lasered by crew then popping back out 20 seconds later at full? The answer would be never, because that IPC wouldn't be able to fix their burns at all without surgery. And all of this comes on the caveat that the supposed 'strength' of IPCs as you see it, their ability to fix themselves with a welder and cable coil, is available to literally every player round start via prosthetics and augmentations. And yet a staggering minority of players ever elect to use or have prosthetics for the very reason they are more difficult to mend and repair once severely damaged (or EMP'd) than a visit to medical for healing patch. |
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I don't think making a specie easily instakill-able is a good way to balance said specie. |
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If you want to see some slightly outdated changes/debate about this very subject, please reivew #8784 |
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For what it's worth I always saw IPCs as the race with glass bones and paper skin but could never truly die unless you specifically destroy their brain. They could be turned into a nugget with maximum damage and left for an hour like that but patch them up and good as new. That's the gimmick I always felt would be fitting for IPCs: easy to break but difficult to kill. I'd even say for EMPs to not damage the brain, just the body. Only methods that destroy items like the grinder machine or chemical reactions that cause damage to items would be the way to destroy them |
could re-open that pr wink |
Couldn't the same be said about organics? as long as the brain is still intact SR and brain transplant is absolutely always an option, yet organics have 5x the health of IPCs.. at least the ones with newcrit. IPCs aren't really changeling-esque if that's what you're implying as they still need someones assistance to come back, which again puts them in the same place as organics. both can be brought back from even the most extreme deaths as long as their brains/posibrains are intact the only difference is that the new crit races are the last to die from these extreme deaths |
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@Couls but don't all organic brains have a lifespan before they go necrotic? Basically dead? If you take too long trying to revive an organic then you risk the organic parts decomposing. But you also mention SR yet that doesn't always work I don't think? |
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SR always works as long as the brute and burn damage is under 150, the only time SR doesn't work and I assume such is a bug is on slimepeople which use oldcrit and have above 200 toxins damage. the brain can probably rot but that isn't really an issue as splashing mitocholide on it will immediately revive the brain and mito isn't that hard of a chemical to make or produce especially with an fully upgraded chem dispenser But this is getting off-topic, my point is organics aren't that much harder to revive but much more resilient at the same time. |
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This is not going to pass, due to having objections against it by all 3 heads of staff. |
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Closing for above reason. I don't think giving more species spaceproofedness is good game design either. |
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What does this PR do:
This PR makes IPC's space-proof. I believe IPC's should not be vulnerable to space. Not only does it not make any sense in the lore, it would make for an effective and appropriate buff to IPCs. The races that operate under New Crit have 2 to 3 times the effective health of an IPC. Rather than try to fix the lack of durability that is iconic to IPCs I purpose that IPCs should instead be buffed to become space-proof. I believe this would not effect the overall balance of combat and antagonists, but rather serve as another utility for IPCs, a utility that fits well with the overall high amount of conveniences IPC already trades for the ease at which they die.
Changelog:
馃啈
tweak: Copied the 'space-immunity' property from Vox to IPCs
/:cl:
I even wrote an entire essay on why I think this change would be appropriate on the Paradise Forums.
https://nanotrasen.se/forum/topic/16212-giving-ipcs-space-immunity/