Parole #4766
Parole #4766
Conversation
- Improved tracking implants - Added parole implant (chem implant with ether) - Added parole jumpsuit + control wand - Added box of the above to warden's locker
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Yes, please. 👍
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yes 👍 |
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Wow, that's a pretty cool idea. Great work 👍 |
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👍 I like it. A bit iffy on the locking jumpsuit, might be just me. Maybe have it alarmed? |
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What are your thoughts on Security potentially using this to just full power game and put one of these suits on someone that remotely acts up? I personally don't see this as solving an issue of giving prisoners more interaction as much as I predict it will be used to just keep any potential problems instantly subdued. I do like M3hi's idea of an ankle bracelet though. Maybe instead of a full suit it can be along those lines and alert security should a prisoner enter certain areas or tamper with it. |
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Ankle bracelet could work, but then has issues with how it is put on them as we don't have a slot for "accessories" aside from the one on jumpsuits. But all they'd need to do is take off the suit to lose the accessory, which means you'd be better off merging it into a special parolee suit that they can't remove alone. Wouldn't want them getting in trouble for changing into their uniform because they got a job after all. |
| var/loc_display = "Unknown" | ||
| var/health_display = "OK" | ||
| var/total_loss = round(M.getOxyLoss() + M.getToxLoss() + M.getFireLoss() + M.getBruteLoss(), 1) | ||
| if (M.stat > UNCONSCIOUS) |
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I can see this being used by security to protect their own IDs, are there any measures which make that less attractive? |
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@M3hillus @IcyV @IcyV @Fox-McCloud @theColdflame |
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Perhaps add cutting them off, where it acts like handcuffs when wirecutters are used on the suit. Using the same timer as handcuffs, and lets out an alarm/location of the user on the security channel a la beepsky when he arrests someone. |
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@M3hillus Enabling anyone to get them off with wirecutters would make them pointless. So, not doing that. |
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But it makes sense. Add an alert on the security radio "X has disabled their parole equipment in Y" and it Will give people an option to escape it without being a traitor or having access to SciChem. |
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Security will find out they've disabled it anyway, when they go back to sec and sec tries to unlock it - finding it already unlocked. And when they click it again, it will show a little message that indicates it was tampered with. If sec never recall their parolees back to check their suits are intact... well then they're not managing their parolees. Enabling parolees to break the suit with wirecutters makes it too easy. Having it display a radio alert when broken makes it too strong. |
Where are the conditions for this actually specified?
So, these are supposed to encourage security to grant parole to more prisoners, but they're so powerful that you have to limit security to two of them. And any actual traitors are likely to escape from them anyway, so why bother letting them walk out of security at all?
So the person is screwed out of changing jobs, using guest pass computers, wearing guest passes, mining... probably other stuff, since IDs were never intended to be stuck to you. And it's not as if the warden will go out of his way to help someone take off their ID, since apparently...
... security is too lazy to walk on down to the chemist and ask for some ether. Which you're compensating for by giving them a couple free 3-minute-knockout implants. Considering we already have tracking implants to show rough location, and chem implants to knock people out, this just feels like "security hard, plz buff". |
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I do not like the idea of nodrop jumpsuits as general-issue shit for sec. |
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@Krausus |
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| /obj/item/clothing/under/color/yellow/parole/emag_act(user as mob) | ||
| if(parole_locked && !emagged) | ||
| to_chat(user, "\red You overload the suit's locking mechanism.") |
I looked through SOP and space law. I couldn't find anything about parole or a similar concept. Are you sure parole is even a thing? A major reason for brig time is to punish players who misbehave, and turning brig time into a minor slap on the wrist seems contrary to that. If it's not actually part of SOP, that would probably explain why you don't see it happen very often...
Getting brigged isn't supposed to be fun. It's a punishment to deter misbehavior. To assume that players, who have done something to get brigged, deserve to immediately get let back out, is missing the point of the brig entirely. Also, who would go through the trouble of setting someone up with one of the only two parole jumpsuits to speed up their agonizing ten minute sentence?
There are machines that you must insert your ID into, after physically removing it from your jumpsuit, to use. This includes machines to earn or redeem mining points. |
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@sasanek12 @Ssirius @KasparoVy @Da-Dman234 @DaveTheHeadcrab @FlattestGuitar |
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Good idea. Thats why I proposed make either new job or extend IAA as Parole officer. Give them portable traking equipment and other things. |
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I cannot overstate how much I want this to be a thing. Not only would this allow Security a bit more breathing room for your run of the mill bar brawlers, it would actually add some semblance of a deterrent for Parolees. Plus, actually give tracking implants more use. |
| var/mob/living/carbon/M = T.imp_in | ||
| var/loc_display = "Unknown" | ||
| var/health_display = "OK" | ||
| var/total_loss = round(M.getOxyLoss() + M.getToxLoss() + M.getFireLoss() + M.getBruteLoss(), 1) |
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You could probably just do maxhealth - health
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Hmm, is this going to get merged? The conflict is resolved, is there something else wrong with it? |
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I would like it to be merged. The issues that people raised previously were addressed. The merge conflict was resolved. CL exists and is up-to-date. It also has a supermajority of support in voting. |
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I still disagree with giving security pre-filled ether implants just because they're too lazy to get empty chem implants filled. Trying to remove inter-departmental cooperation because "uguu, working with the peasants outside security is too much trouble" is just bad. You've added several pre-filled implanters, rather than the single implanter, implant pad (to configure their IDs), and multiple cased implants used by other implant boxes. Also, this increases the number of tracking implants and chem implants sec starts with; if you intend to replace the existing implants with better ones, then actually replace them. I'm not sure about the change to the tracking implant UI. Showing the person's name seems like a poor decision, since that can change arbitrarily, though the chem implant UI already does that. Also, your change appears to add a bunch of line breaks. What does it actually look like in-game? |
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@Krausus It isn't just laziness. Chem implants have multiple other issues. Examples: 1) Nobody knows how to use them. Even when I deliberately set out to use them, I have to spend a few minutes re-figuring out how they work every time, because it is not remotely obvious or even intuitive. 2) Prisoners fear chem implants, assuming they're lethal by default. 3) Security could ask for stuff from Chem, but the fact is they don't, and waiting while that happens just delays release, and makes parole less likely. It is a net loss for everyone. This isn't about enabling security laziness, this is about making something that's not currently viable, viable. That thing being parole - which is a net win for everyone. As to increasing the number of implants, yes, it does, but A) This was not intended to replace B) nobody uses them now, so no reason to delete them, and C) they might still be useful for lethal chem implants for people convicted of capital crimes. The reason the UI shows their name is that without it, you just have an ID number, and that's extremely unhelpful if you've implanted more than one person and have to make a decision regarding which one to activate. I'll take a screenshot of the UI when I get a moment. |
Because they're too lazy to learn.
So? It's a brig, not a daycare. It doesn't matter if they're afraid.
And they shouldn't be rewarded for being lazy.
If you're so paranoid about someone committing another crime that you have to thoroughly implant them before letting them out on parole, maybe you shouldn't be in a rush to get them back out the door. |
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Asking stuff from chem isn't often practical because chem tends to finish up early in the round and criminals tend to come in mid-round to late-round. That's assuming there's even a chem to begin with and it wasn't just done by MDs with the CMO's permission. |
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Krausus, ultimately: the goal is to get more people out on Parole. I hate to bring up the vote count, but right now it is 9 in favor, not counting three horrays, with only one against. Its unreasonable to expect any Sec-affecting PR to get universal acclaim, but I think this is about as close as you can get. |
This is a massive overdramatization. The "hassle" is that you don't want to have to interact with chemistry to make easy-mode nap-time implants.
The tracking console shows an ID number and area. And you can use the teleporter to literally teleport straight on top of someone with a tracking implant.
what.
what. These implants explicitly give you more control over someone than you'd have if they simply finished their sentence and walked out. You want to release someone and be able to track their location and put them to sleep at any point in the rest of the round. This drastically reduces the effort to powergame as security.
Alright, stop. The brig exists so people who commit crimes are excluded from fun for a period of time. If they don't want that to happen, they either don't commit crimes, or they don't get caught. Letting them out without any sort of punishment runs contrary to the entire point of the brig, and letting them out full of implants that trivialize tracking and recapturing antagonists is practically just powergaming. You know what will make the round more fun? If people stopped being jerks and getting themselves brigged. You know what will help stop that? Forcing them to wait around in the brig, not having fun, until they consider not being jerks next time. |
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Parole is not just for security's sake, it's to help keep people that were arrested in the round and not afk watching a youtube. Making it easy shouldn't be a big deal. The new Space Law has a big section on parole and it's intended to receive some more use. Tons of people want this PR to go through, and I'm eager to see how it will evolve Security. |
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The hassle isn't just interacting with chem. In fact, in the times I've used them, interacting with chem has been the intuitive part. The hard part is getting them filled correctly. I (as medchemist) have provided ether in two minutes, only to hear Sec spend more than 5 minutes fiddling around with them trying to work out how to use the implant. The tracking console, last I checked, did not show area, only co-ordinates, for tracking implants. It is only with this PR it starts showing area. These parole implants don't exist for antags. They exist as an alternative to brig time for people who're very unlikely to commit addition violations anyway. If sec don't trust someone not to re-offend, they'll just give them the brig time instead of these. The purpose of the brig is not to exclude people from fun. That's like saying the purpose of real-life prisons is to make people miserable. Sure, they might do that, but their actual purpose is managing and reducing crime. Similarly, the actual purpose of the brig in SS13 is to minimize space law violations. I would argue that a non-violent offender unlikely to repeat their crime, being given parole, has a lower chance of re-offending than someone who'se callously thrown in the brig for the maximum time. The latter breeds resentment and a 'screw security!' attitude. The former provides the person an incentive to be on their best behavior. Also, for the record, parole & chem implants look like this on the console: And tracking implants look like this: |
Now these excuses are just getting silly. Add instructions, either to the implant case description itself, or to the box they come in. The solution to players not knowing how to do a task isn't to remove the task. That's insane.
Tracking console shows area. What you're thinking about is the locator, included in the tracking implant box, which shows coordinates specifically so you can directly zero in on someone's location. You aren't modifying the locator's UI at all.
You don't get to decide what they get used for - the players do. And no sane player will waste one of the three pairs of implants in their convenient new "Fuck Antagonists" box on someone who's unlikely to commit more crimes; they'll save them for the obvious antagonists that they would probably execute if it wasn't literally against the rules to do so on a whim. But now, they can simply say, "we're putting you on parole, which means we're allowed to shove these implants in you that let us ruin your day if we notice you trying to complete an antag objective. Er, I mean, commit another crime. Have fun!" You can't just say "but these are for X!" and completely ignore the actual consequences of what something does.
Brigging is a punishment for misbehavior. It boils down to, "for what you've done, you don't get to play for X minutes". You can explain it using whatever flowery verbiage you want, but it is what it is.
If someone is non-violent and unlikely to repeat their crime, you probably don't need to implant them with implants that scream, "we don't actually trust you, but thankfully, we can screw you over just in case". You just need to let them leave. What you say these implants are for, and what purpose they actually serve, is directly contradictory. You don't need to be implanting people you "trust". These will get used solely on people who aren't trusted. Perhaps what you should be doing, instead of trying to make parole easier by buffing security through code changes, is getting parole without implants codified into space law. If parole is meant for people unlikely to re-offend, they don't need implants. |
Uhh, we want antagonists to misbehave. We just need some sort of penalty for them getting caught, otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. A chem implant is a sufficient penalty. We want parole to be a more convenient option so it is used more. |
We have a penalty. It's time in the brig, eating into the time you have left to complete your objectives. Getting a couple implants that make it trivial to track and immobilize you is actually a harsher penalty than simply losing some time. |
That's highly subjective, and I doubt these implants will be used frugally. This is a great option for non-violent criminals who would otherwise be perma'd. |
Ending up in perma requires an incredibly serious offense - or, more likely, multiple serious offenses. Would you honestly label such a person as "unlikely to re-offend, suitable for parole"? |
With a tracking chip in their head that can knock them out at any time? Yeah, I could completely see certain criminals being regarded save to release from perma with that. |
So what you're saying is, this one-two punch of implants is so hilariously overpowered that, so long as they were inside someone responsible for even capital-grade crimes, you'd feel comfortable letting that person walk out of the brig? Interesting. |
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Goodness gracious you like to put words in people's mouths, don't you? I think it is good to have something that requires oversight to let non-violent criminals go when they would otherwise be removed from the round. Please stop being so hostile. We get it, you disagree. It's not the end of the world if this gets pushed. |
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Let's keep it civil, please---all sides. |
Also deletes parole kit from warden's locker, as it is pointless now.
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Well, that sucks. |
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Parole implants deleted. Parole jumpsuits were deleted ages ago. |
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From hundreds of lines to 15 the rise and fall of parole. At this point, it's become a QoL addition to tracking implants |
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It's really quite sad. :/ |
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Could you make the console format its information into a table? The old method of just throwing some vertical bars between each bit of info was lazy, but just throwing some newlines between each bit of info kinda looks worse. Also, you mentioned that the coordinates shown on the locator are hard to use; have you considered changing it so it instead shows a distance and direction for each tracking implant? |
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The symbols render as a line in github. In game, they're the same as they are now. I haven't changed anything about the locator. If you want to, feel free. This only changes the prisoner management console. The locator is generally not used. Ready for review - this is intended to be final state for this PR. |
Goals:
Changes:
Parole implants have been added. These are chem implants pre-filled with non-addictive sedative (ether). A violent person wants parole? Give him one of these, plus a tracking implant, and you'll be able to sedate and retrieve him later if he turns violent again. This is technically already possible with general-purpose chem implants, but (A) nobody ever uses them, as they're too much hassle, and (B) prisoners fear being given lethal chem implants. This PR addresses both of those issues. Once activated from a prisoner management console, these parole implants can create blurry vision (after 30s), then unconsciousness (after a minute). At maximum dosage, the unconsciousness lasts approximately 3-4 minutes. These implants have a set amount of chems they can use - once those are depleted, the implant is absorbed by the body.Parole implants have been deleted from this PR.Parole jumpsuits have been added. These are yellow jumpsuits which, when worn with an ID and locked with a jumpsuit control tool (also added), neither they nor the ID the person is wearing can be removed until unlocked again with the tool. They prevent parolees disguising their identity (must always wear their ID), or turning off suit sensors. Note: traitors can still escape these easily with an emag. Even normal crew can potentially escape if they're lucky enough to find a reliable source of EMPs (e.g: engine, EXPERIMENTOR). Breaking the parole suit with emag or EMP will be noticed, though.Parole jumpsuits have been deleted from this PR.Added a parole box to the warden's locker. It contains two parole implants, two tracking implants, two parole jumpsuits, and one parole jumpsuit remote.Notes:
🆑 Kyep
tweak: Tracking implants are now useful, showing the implanted person's general location, and health status, on prisoner consoles.
fix: The NODROP flag now works correctly on jumpsuits.
/:cl: