Make Those Vamps Work For It

[IK3I]

Does what is says on the tin, make those vamps work for their blood because something something bluespace makes the brainless a snack rather than a meal.

🆑
tweak: Mobs that have no ckey assigned to them will only give nutrition to vampires.
/:cl:

[Rumiluntti]

Finally the end to monkeyman cheese.

[deep-fried-faceplant]

Vampires being able to fully power up without ever taking a victim is horrible. If the purpose of antagonists is to create tension and drama, further the round's "story", and increase the level of chaos on the station, then vampires should be forced to hunt, rather than graze. Imagine if an abductor team stole a monkey box and a bunch of SE injectors, then completed their objective by shoving implants into humanized monkeys. It would be boring, powergaming, and completely miss the point of ss13. The same goes for vampires who are content with abusing genetics to complete their blood-sucking requirement.

[granodd]

On the fence with this one. On one hand it keeps the vampire from cheesing and getting super powerful off of nothing but humanized-monkeys. On the other hand, this means you have to take a human (or whatever else has blood) for your first victim, meaning you're completely unpowered, meaning you'll have less tools at your disposals, so if you get caught, you're SOL.

[scrubmcnoob]

Iffy on this as it make the game seem more inconsistent with who you can actually get usable blood from.

[Tayyyyyyy]

On the other hand, this means you have to take a human (or whatever else has blood) for your first victim, meaning you're completely unpowered, meaning you'll have less tools at your disposals, so if you get caught, you're SOL.

If it's too hard to kidnap a victim as an unpowered vampire, then that indicates a balance issue with vampires that can be solved by buffing unpowered vampires. Humanized monkeys are not the solution and have far more drawbacks than benefits.

[FlattestGuitar]

While it is something I ultimately support, this thing on its own nerfs vampires even further, making the already rarely exciting antagonist even more harmless.

Code something to make up for the potential lost here. If the only vampires to ever reach full power are the ones cheesing the system, we're doing something wrong.

[IK3I]

perhaps some buffs/nerfs to baseline abilities are needed? discuss, because if we're to preserve the ramping nature of them, it can't be too good early or it would outshine them late.

Edit: I'm going to do a pass over all the vamp abilities and give them a full rebalance to reflect the ramping nature of their abilities. I'll throw up details once I have some progress in that regard.

[IK3I]

Also, it's a playstyle issue flattest, I reach full power more often than I don't and I never feed on monkeys. Half the time I'm not even a suspect until I already have most if not all my powers and a healthy blood pool.

[IK3I]

Okay, finished first pass of rebalance. Can find details and discuss it here: https://nanotrasen.se/forum/topic/10487-giving-vampires-some-much-needed-love/

[DesolateG]

This nerf only perpetuates how weak vampires are unpowered.

[imsxz]

I'll go with this change if we get a different buff regarding kidnapping, like a mute or something. Right now it can be too risky to go for early maint kills because they can just should "X IS VAMPIRE" and you'll have the whole lynch mob on you before you even have improved vision

[Rumiluntti]

You don't even need genetics to make monkeymen. Mutagen+mutadone pill humanizes monkeys.
Every science nerd can get their hands on these at roundstart and go have their belly full of vitae in the outpost.

This is a needed change.
Buffing roundstart vampires is another shitcake that needs to be adressed, I guess

[DesolateG]

@Rumiluntti With vampire as one of my favorite antags I honestly couldn't support this PR without roundstart vamps being buffed at the same time. There have been many rounds where I can automatically guess that there's no way I'd be able to properly get victims as unpowered vamp without being royally validhunted just by looking at command manifest

[Necaladun]

Filling up on non players is cheap and against the intent and spirit. It's boring is another reason science antags are king.

[Birdtalon]

Definitely support this as an avid and fairly experienced vampire player although please don't complain about murderboning to fill up on blood as for 1000 blood you would need to fully drain 4 people (I think)

[DesolateG]

@Necaladun validhunting is against the intent and spirit too but I don't see them getting punished for it.

[imsxz]

Validhunting is punished all the time, provided it's ahelped. Keep in mind, someone dragging your victim away from you isn't validhunting alone. I can 100% confirm though that admins crack down on validhunting assuming it's actually validhunting.

[IK3I]

@Birdtalon 228 is the absolute maximum blood you can get from a person assuming you don't give them a blood producing drug or IV drip. Keep them alive until they reach the 20% instant death point to get this much.

[KingPhilipIII]

I usually snag an assistant for my first victim and tape their mouth shut. Works like a charm. Usually then my third victim gets away, or I don't finish them off, they scream vampire and I'm run down by a horde of seccies with shotguns because 500~ blood isn't enough to escape the lynch mobs.

[Twinmold93]

Just like traitors and changlings, vampires can make stunprods and cable cuffs to kill people. There is nothing here that affects this early ability against any normal vampire without access to humanized monkeys. That is, the only need is against geneticists and the Research Director, no one else (normally).

Personally, when I vampire, I basically ask people if I can feed from them without outright asking, and other than for assassinate never have to kill... And never touch humanized monkeys.

[Twinmold93]

As for the mutagen thing, honestly I feel that shouldn't adjust block 55 at all.

[adamkad1]

too bad this will empower sec that, once someone spots vampire will drag random people into chapel for tests

[Twinmold93]

Which is against the rules, so... Not really.

[granodd]

@Twinmold93 Vampires can make stunprods and cablecuffs in the beginning, yes, though the difference between them and traitors/changelings is that traitors/changelings get access to all of their tools immediately, while a vampire needs to accumulate blood and ramp up to having their full potential.

In a scenario where someone gets stun prodded, cuffed, and dragged into maintenance, there are a few ways it can go depending on who dragged them in. If a traitor did it, they're likely going to be dead fairly quickly due to any number of lethal weapons traitors have access to while the victim screams, but the traitor will have the potential to answer to security with their equipment as well. If a changeling does it, then there's likely not going to be a lot of screaming if they were mute stung, and changelings in themselves have a bit more punch than traitors. Meanwhile, vampire does it, and they have a single-target glare.

Vampires are difficult because they're hard to get momentum with. Laughably weak to start with, and ridiculously strong in their late game. I wouldn't say this is an unwelcome change, but I would say that it sort of reminds everybody of the attention vampires need.

[tigercat2000]

Following discussion between the Heads of Staff and Maintainers, it was decided to close this PR. It is seen as not only making the already difficult vampire early game even MORE difficult, but it would also open the door for players to screw over vampires by ghosting, increasing administrative burden and ruining the game for vampires even more.

[ghost]

something something bluespace

SS13 in a nutshell