Decouples Darksight from Colorblind #8468
Conversation
tigercat2000
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the
Revert/Feature Removal
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Buffing vulps/taj darksight... literally the whole problem that caused it to be coupled with colourblindness in the first place.... ⛔️ |
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⛔️ ❌ 💯 Additionally, the tweaks you've made to the Tajara and Vulpkanin eyes are inconsistent with each other. Meme PR? |
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Reason why? |
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Echo on reason why? For Vulp/Taj characters that belong to players active in the last 30 days, only 6.6% are color blind. This counts all saved characters, it does not account for character playtime. I have never noticed the +6 tiles on colorblind however. Also of note. Grey darksight is reduced by half Unathi is almost doubled. |
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Not a meme PR. |
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Alright it's hard to against logic like that. |
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:thonkong: Lost on me. This was a compromise that was reached, if anyone can recall, after a month of back-and-forth. I've not got it in me to bother with this again. Can't make it any harder a 'no'. |
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If not a meme PR, this should have a balance tag as the net result will be that 94% of Vulp, Taj players are getting a 4x dark sight boost. |
tigercat2000
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Balance
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You're right, I missed that one-... not that it really matters, the tags mean nothing different. They're still handled the same "way", and I'd argue that the black and white "REVERT" is more noticeable than the more common balance tag anyways. |
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Its a huge balance change, you're literally making Taj and Vulps far superior to humans. |
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@SamHPurp A color matrix on the client that mildly mutes colors is not an acceptable tradeoff if the balance implication is as massive as you make it out to be. |
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Explain to me how two races that are otherwise identical, but one has the chance to decapitate unhandedly, as well as see in the dark far further - is good balanced design |
| @@ -312,9 +311,6 @@ | |||
| return colourmatrix | |||
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| /obj/item/organ/internal/eyes/proc/get_dark_view() //Returns dark_view (if the eyes are organic) for see_invisible handling in species.dm to be autoprocessed by life(). | |||
| if(!robotic && colourblind_darkview && owner.disabilities & COLOURBLIND) //Returns special darkview value if colourblind and it exists, otherwise reuse current. | |||
| return colourblind_darkview | |||
| else | |||
| return dark_view | |||
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This only needs to be indented once, now.
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I’ve had my head ripped off by a tajaran as a changeling yea. |
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I thought this PR was a joke, but I guess not. If you're gonna try to buff human+, give them nerfs. I believe in the tg alien philosophy, of humans being the bar and the rest below it, but there's far too many snowflakes for that to pass on paradise. The only reason for this rebuff, which would make taj/vulp back to being stronger humans, is that the person who made the PR plays them, which makes the whole thing a joke in itself. Add weaknesses before thinking of buffing your snowflake, please, balance is give and take, not "please give my character more". |
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If this is not a joke, why not just make all races have the same eye values? Seriously, if they just revert this feature, it will be human+ all over again. Just circles and more wasted time of arguments. Why bother wasting time? It'd be far easier to just give everyone the same eyesight and avoid the very long argument that will ensue in this thread that we already endured once. Wasn't this a compromise anyway? Why remove a compromise that appeased people the most, but instead move back to a direction that many players disliked? And some might think, well if everyone has the same dark sight, isn't that dull and boring in regards to eye traits among the species? tl;dr just humans plus again and more useless debating |
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I viewed the darksight linking as an incentive to chose colorblindness and hence make the species feel different. That failed, only about 6.6% of Taj/Vulp use it, although it is one of the more popular disabilities for all species who take disabilities. I think that those who care about RP type things will keep it regardless. Most of the resistance to this PR seems to be that for 9.4/10 players of these species, its a 4x vision buff with no offsets. Is anyone proposing a nerf to go along with this? Many claim to want species diversity, then claim they don't want any human+, but its not clear how we can balance those things. What would make |
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@alffd I'll suggest a point I'd made in the previous PR, but a mechanical change is always more welcome than a visual one. Visuals exist in ways that are almost entirely OOC affecting with very little or no IC changes, the mechanical changes a diet edit or possibly a change in metabolism could have might be more appropriate. Maybe they could have a higher metabolism and have to eat more to be fed, or on a totally different note, have temperature issues that would actually matter in-game. Maybe the re-addition of shoe and glove clipping being needed for racial flavor, or just about anything to do with a mechanical difference that offsets them noticeably to other players. A visual difference won't be noticeable very much at all to other players, but mechanical changes would be far more impactful, noticeable, and not to mention flavorful in terms of making races actually feel different to be around in-game, especially if the color-blindness has proven to be so unsuccessful that it's used by less than even a tenth of the population. It's a great disability for every race to be able to use, but it's barely noticeable at best to others and annoying OOC-wise to players at best. If people are intent on a nerf, make them interesting or noticeable to play with AND be around, not just something that only one party will ever notice! Tl;dr, make nerfs mechanically interesting/impactful for the player and other players to be around, not barely if at all noticeable to the casual observer! |
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It's not so much the vision in itself, rather a culmination of things that just make these better than humans outright without any major counters. They have a sharp flag added to their unarmed attacks. +1 They have a slight resistance to cold because fur. +1 They have 8x darksight. +1 We removed the thing about mangling shoes for them, and made it optional, because human+ instead of distinct stuff even if annoying. |
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@KingPhillipIII |
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@Dumbdumn5 I would prefer to hear from people who actually play with the disability. It is present on 15% of disabled characters. As someone with one of those characters, I will say it is part of the IC personality of that character. I would be interested in anyone who plays Vulp/Taj who has it because of darksight, as I don't personally know any and while I am confident at least some exist, I would like to hear from them. @KingPhilipIII |
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Ignoring the whole discussion about whether colorblindness is really that bad: Why not make colorblindness affect door wires/bomb wires, etc? That way we can all agree colorblindness will have a mechanical impact as well, instead of risking just being flavor. Removing colorblindness entirely will make vulps little more than just reskinned humans with sharp fingernails. |
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@Tayyyyyyy I think that was mentioned before, and wires don't use some color datum or something? It would require more work than what was originally wanted if I recall. |
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Yep! That's where I got the idea from. It would require more work than what's basically a revert, yes, but fixing will always take more work than reverting. |
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@Tayyyyyyy I will take a look at doing this as a separate PR, regardless of the outcome of this PR its a neat idea. edit: Crap, that was on me to do, I got distracted by atmospherics. |
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@Allfd I didn't mean to say that colorblindness isn't a part of somebody's IC personality, but that it's very seldom noticeable as an effect outside of simple aesthetic differences on the side of the afflicted player. Though I may not play a colorblind or vulp/taj character, I do play around them, and as far as racial differences go, it doesn't seem to affect much outwardly in terms of the way they play their role or manage their character in the realms of gameplay itself outside of a conversation topic. As for other races, IPCs have to seek APCs to eat and are seen near them jamming cords into the things to siphon power, or taking themselves into situations more carefully being significantly more prone to damage and death faster than any other race (in most cases). Diona are slower and avoid dark areas if they don't have any lights. Greys try to avoid water and some with wingdings are VERY noticeable compared to normal speech, often resorting to telapathy. Skrell are more susceptible to alcohol and have a headpocket that holds items. What I'm trying to say is, colorblindness is a much more subtle difference when compared to other races and that alternatives, even something as small as having to worry about their diet being carnivorous (and having that actually mean something if they ignore it a la vomitting) or just in general eating more as a result of faster metabolism, are well worth the look for the changes being much more visible than the visual differences sported by something that fits way better with people who like to play characters with disabilities. Disabilities are a way to adversely change the way you roleplay your character and in some ways, hinder how you play the game in ways that will primarily affect your overall communication with other players. Races more directly change the mechanical way somebody would play the game based on their buff/debuff kit in such a way that their gameplay differences will directly influence the way they play the game. (Basically, the idea of class silhouettes in an FPS where differences and flavor of each 'class' or race in this case, are noticeable and impactful at a glance.) While colorblindness fits the cats and dogs flavor of both races, I personally feel that it better suits a minor disability moreso than the default for an entire race, and think that it takes up a valuable slot for more interesting mechanical changes that foster differing RP in a much more natural, non-OOC intrusive manner. |
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So we can actually pull a better number, but it would involve cross referencing the data with log activity. Which is a bit of work for something that was likely not a deciding factor in this PR. I agree with @TullyBurnalot that we can discount all Furry related comments, however a significant portion of those that remain are not that. @Vivalas Your point on skill is correct. I remember having no idea how to use a gun when I first started playing and got toolboxed to death. I see this as a perpendicular argument to Vox taking more damage, as both are offset by skill. Further a separate point tied to numbers, either the numbers of players taking the disability were low, in which case this is a huge buff. Or the numbers were high, in which case this served its intended purpose. A)
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A) Requires the amount of characters played with it to be low Both cannot be true. |
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AFAIK, there aren't any "furry" related comments, other than those thinking they're seeing furry related comments, and suddenly getting super defensive about it. This isn't a furry thing. Stop trying to make everything a furry thing. |
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This is the problem with us being labeled the 'Furry Server' (despite places like Citadel existing. Not to go slinging mud some of those folks are great people but still.) is that whenever the species that give us that title get brought up, it's already under fire so often some people might just get defensive automatically. |
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Its not a furry thing, full stop. I know who plays what character and, with what disabilities. This cut fell primarily on RP lines, but interestingly, playing Taj was better correlated to wanting dark sight unlinked, while playing Vulp tied more closely to wanting them to be linked. The Vulp/Taj thing seems to be secondary to playstyle, playstyle has to be gauged by observing IC behavior, so if we want to make this a Vulp vs Taj thing.... Eh... Anyways, my opinion is this had far less to do with Furry/NotFurry, and more to do with RP preferences, which just happened in many cases to break on Taj/Vulp lines. This all involves a level of subjectivity, it also only takes into account people who voiced opinions that I know of. |
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The concerns have always been about balance. Someone already told some of us that, once this got merged, those involved were waiting for "the salt because muh furries" that was to come on discord. Solid devving. Nobody gives a fuck about your fetish. |
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After hearing about this from a few friends of mine, and looking through the comments, I'm surprised that no one brought up the idea of making everything [fully] colorblind when in the dark. Particularly considering that this is how low-light vision works on, as far as I know, every single thing that has eyes, in real life, that can remotely see in the dark - including humans. I consider this to be a more challenging approach, but I can also see it giving those races that do have decent low-light vision an interesting caveat to said low-light vision, particularly given the other balancing changes that are being discussed. EDIT: on re-reading this and a few other things, it occurs to me that I was misreading part of this discussion; mainly that full colorblindness wasn't what was being discussed (this became particularly obvious after seeing #8472). So, I removed the (rather pretentious) aside about dichromism since that seems to be how it already worked. |
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The intent of merging this PR and making a bunch of splits first wasn't to spit in the face of discussion and totally ignore criticism, the point was to go through with the original intent of the PR, to remove the direct linking of darksight and colorblindness, and then make separate PRs afterwards changing single variables to determine what was best, in addition to other PRs as needed, such as the current PRs for flash damage as suggested above, as well as number tweaking. If something isn't mentioned, write up something in the suggestion subforum and have a discussion about what to add, remove, revert, and then once something seems like a good idea, slap up a PR and have the same discussion over that specific change on the github. It's a matter of splitting up discussion into relevant subtopics between numerical tweaks to more abstract nerfs and balance changes to the system to make sure everything comes out properly. The matter of "we'll figure that out later, swearsies" is something we hoped to avoid by asking for the creation of some of the separate PRs so that we actually did have options to move forward with instead of merging this one, then just sitting on our hands without having anything prepared or planned codewise for contingency and trust in the matter of at least having some sort of option to talk over. Right now the flash damage, glowing eyes (not really a balance tweak, just something that looks awesome), and the number changing PR are all currently up so that everybody has avenues of discussion where more specific points would be relevant. tl;dr, Basically, we merged this first because we wanted a control group for non-colorblind darksight and base the proceeding balancing off of responses in other PRs, as the vast majority of complaints are complaining about giving a race a buff without any nerf to counterbalance it. Plan essentially was this in maint/head chat:
The entire point of why we did this is more or less to give everybody proper avenues to discuss things without stepping over themselves or eachother and make things more coherent. Name threads specifically about what you want, or if it's meant to be something abstract, name it something more broad and then whiddle things down into what you'd like to create. One system I've seen suggested is a pathfinder style race default and having a bunch of alternate traits that could swap out sets of buffs and debuffs to change things around. The only issue is and always will be coding it. Just try to keep discussion as respectful as possible and don't take any jabs at other people or their points. It's fine to be passionate about things, but if something seems fishy or it looks like things are being done for no reason or contrary to the public good, we've all got discords you can poke us over, inboxes on the forums you can send messages to, or you could just ping us over the github in general. Thanks for the feedback, and I'm sorry if things seemed off or unreasonable through this whole thing or the text wall above. |
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Sorry, but the piecemeal handling of this seems piss poor. Mind you, Aurora/Fethas had no plans to couple any sort of downside to this massive buff to a race already swimming in buffness. If you want to equate it to Pathfinder system. You've got your Aasimar right here. Just don't be surprised if people start complaining or leaving your gaming table. He'll, Aasimar have more balance than this. This is the DM making a special race for the DMPCs and ignoring player criticism. |
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Also in Pathfinder, the races are mostly equal even before you bring in alternative traits. They have buffs and weaknesses that make them better or worse than others at certain classes, and then they also have prejudice and trouble applied to them because of their race, something that this server really doesn't have. So you basically want to have a race that's treated the same in game as humans, but with massive buffs to them, while leaving your base race with nothing. |
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@AristoVagrant that's the endgoal, but we don't really have everything we want put together yet, as, for anything close to the whole suggested trait system to be a thing, we'd need to code a trait system, come up with exactly what the vanilla race would be, then decide which things could be interchangeable and what would need to always be consistent throughout every variation one step at a time. I don't expect to see a full system like that coded for a very long while. I get that it's imbalanced currently because this is merged and currently no nerf has been merged yet, but having the gameplay impacted one piece at a time is more likely to give us a clearer picture at seeing what works and what doesn't. Them having darksight with absolutely no downside to compensate isn't the long term solution by any stretch of the imagination and considering the work has already been done on the potential new nerfs/tweaks, then once they're reviewed it shouldn't be long before things are balanced out again. Over time we want to have a race system that fits certain species into certain jobs better than others, with a focus on the non-karma species first getting specialized since they lack diversity more than most of the karma races. The issue is that, in all of this, tweaks will have to be made to each race, and sometimes the balance will be upset for a period while all the kinks are getting hammered out. If you've got a good idea and can shoot something out quickly and bug/conflict free, then that'll be a massive boon to getting everything back on track as soon as possible. For now, however, the less variables in each PR to account for, the less difficult it will be to discern what specifically is the most effective fix or most problematic issue. |
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@Dumbdumn5 to be fair, I had considered proposing a similar "trait" system as a way to hand balance things. Rather than going full in-game trait system (which, I agree, would take forever), getting a formal, out-of-game system set up that tracks these kinds of things between existing races could go a long way in helping keep them balanced. Mostly, I think the problem is that there are a lot of people with eyes on game balance, but not a lot of people that can see the whole plan. Getting a plan out in front of everyone, even if you can't get everything implemented, would go a long way to keeping these kinds of discussions civil and on-topic, I think. Also, if the idea was to clear up some old shit code and then add in other issues later, it really should have been mentioned in the original PR post. As it stands, it does look like @Aurorablade was just trying to buff a couple races with no additional consideration. |
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The thing is this, @Dumbdumn5 : The decoupling of this, even with the alternative effects coming soon ™️ shouldn't have been done separately. There was no urgent pressing requirement for this to be done immediately. Zero. So, for arbitrary reasons, this race now enjoys a ridiculous buff which (as far as I can tell) the entire community, minus Tully, Fethas and Tiger, strongly opposed... for however long until something more appropriate balance wise can be designed. So, you intentionally took a step backwards, without the end goal benefit of doing so - and the community, nor myself, can see the ultimate goal for pushing this through on its own, up front, piecemeal style. Its a really bad move. |
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i do want to do a trait system but my issue is doing the UI work. Polaris has a trait system just the UI setup is diffrent so..yeah... |
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ITT historical revisionism @Dumbdumn5 the other PRs were created without prompting, it was never the intent of this PR to do anything other then buff darksight. The PRs done by @kasparovv and myself were done on our own accord. No alternative effects were planed. |
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@SamHPurp There wasn't any pressing reason, no, but decoupling darksight from being linked into an otherwise completely unrelated disability is something that we wanted to do in favor of adding different, more impactful disabilities. Alffd's recent PR to make colorblindness actually impact something is still fairly minor for the ridiculous buff darksight seems to be, and so we opted to let the current PRs have their own discussions on why it's necessary and why it's not and determine which is the better option in regard to a downside for a trait like darksight. We intentionally took a step backward after seeing the newer PRs 2 days after seeing how they would affect racial balance and agreeing that, with some discussion and tweaks based on that, that things would hopefully balance out and be a little more interesting than they currently are or were before the merge. @chall8908 the whole plan wasn't really up before the PR as the heads heard about this the same time everybody else did (at least as far as I know) and so we hadn't discussed much of one yet before discussion had already started in the comments below it. The reasoning behind pushing this forward first, @SamHPurp was to get a control group for the species without colorblindness factoring into things. We wanted to see specifically how each change would play out balancing darksight, not see how it would balance both colorblindness and darksight together in the event that one of the nerfs were merged first for testing purposes. With how it seems in chat, we're trying on different changes to see which one fits and, if none of them do, heading back to the old one or making a fitting debuff based off of feedback from these. |
I agree that the initial compromise needs to be revisited, but why was it necessary to experiment? It seems pretty straightforward that vulps right now have all upside and no downside. You went from mildly human+:
To human++:
I think adding darksight to vulps/tajarans is a great thematic buff for them, as long as they're paired with some interesting downsides, but I don't see why it was necessary to add it first, without figuring out the other PRs and then merging them together. Now, we're going to have a period of time where vulps are objectively the best race in the game. |
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@Allfd correct, we never did ask you to, but your PRs being created were factored into things before merging this one. |
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@Tayyyyyyy The fact that they're currently human+ is true, but the point is that they aren't intended to be and absolutely will not be permanently. Everybody's coming off of holiday break, meaning they're all back at their computers and can get things done a great deal faster than they would around finals and family visits. It's a period, but it's a small one and should be more or less unremarkable in the major ways it affects the game (that being that colorblindness really didn't mechanically hinder the race all that much and the detriment was entirely on the OOC player before the PR to make colorblindness actually affect anything that hadn't and hasn't been merged as of writing this. The endgoal and overall intent is to still come out with a balanced race, and the gap, so long as it's short, should be able to be stuck through until the fix is in. |
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@Dumbdumn5 The intent very much appears to be a buff, with no consideration for any sort of later balancing. There were not other PRs waiting in the wings, my PR has no relation at all to darksight, and #8489 and #8491 remain open. If this was the intent, why have we not seen any PRs from those who intended to balance? Talk is cheap, and yet to even receive an affirmative from the supporters of this that they even ever intended to make something. |
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@Allfd I doubt they ever had plans to counterbalance this. Even Fethas's laughable nerf to 6 darksight (still highest of the base races) wasn't planned until the uproar. |
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I think there is enough negative criticism for this PR that making a revert PR is feasible if other methods fail to go through or inadequately address the balance concerns a vast majority of the community seem to hold against these races. |
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@Allfd #8491 is already open and making it again would kinda be pointless at this point, and #8489 was talked about as being difficult and somebody said it'd take a while or be incredibly hard to do without fucking over sight and not knowing how code really works, I just kinda thought that they'd know what was within the realms of possibility. Now that those two are already out, the only thing really left to do is talk them over and get stuff moving. I can't really make anything unless I totally learned BYONDcode and made my first PR about this specifically, which would take way longer than what's already been done. The only thing I can give you on intent is my own and what the heads and maints wanted to say on the matter to try and clear things up. The solution by the end of this is pretty much exactly what @Vivalas stated if things don't balance out. There isn't much left to do but just move forward with things. |
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None of those things were put on the table or had anything to do with this PR. Its not fair to try and take the work of others and make it "part of the plan." The goal of this PR was to buff Taj, the reason these other PRs appeared is because if the authors did not do them, they would simply not be done. If you check the commit history, this had been in the works from right before Tiger left, until he returned when it was submitted. This was in the works for weeks. When the PR was submitted, the most recent commit was on December 4th. |
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Okay i am getting pretty agitated about people throwing accusations about me, at me and what feels like attacks directed at me. You wanna know why it was there so long? I WAS IN DIALOGUE WITH ALOT OF PEOPLE CAUSE I KNEW THE EXACT REACTION I AM SEEING NOW WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. I did NOT want to put up a PR until my code was looking okay and we could all brace down for it it. " Its not fair to try and take the work of others and make it "part of the plan."" EVERYTHING. EVERYTHINGGGGGG Dumbdumb said is FACTUAL. But i am only ONE person working with OTHER people, I work in retail, sometimes my hours are not good and i encourage ANYONE, ANYONE with the creativity or talent in code to put something up to put something up if my life for some reason does not let me put something up fast enough. I would like to port the trait thing from polaris (with my own traits) but i am having trouble with the UI half of it due to difference in our UI Pref code to theirs. the initial reason the darksight value was some despised was its combo with mesons under the OLD lighting system. I think most of that issue was fixed, I THINK. I apologize if i sound cranky but i kinda am right now. |
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@Aurorablade I want to out on a limb here and say that, while I don't see many targetted attacks or accusations against you, the ones that do exist might be because of your reputation to create PRs that are, for the most part, very negatively received by the community and are either dangerously close to being merged (vorgs), or in this case, actually merged. People tend to get upset when it is very clear that the interests of the majority, and the playerbase at large, are not being clearly represented by server direction. |
Changes:
Vulp/Taj colourblind will not reduce darksight if you do not have it. It will be 8.
Mech assisted eyes will remain at 2 darkview, Reasoning:They are robotic eye augments.
Wolpin/Kitty Monkeys, will be colourblind by default still. There is some voodoo going on there and it also makes sense.
Adjusted the values of some races darkview back to what they are/were supposed to be NUMBERS CAN BE CHANGED ON FEEDBACK (i think its unathi and grey).
🆑Fethas
tweak:Darksight is no longer affected by colourblind on vulp/taj, unless they are monkeys.
tweak:Revamped some racial darkviews to proper levels.Maybe.
/:cl: