Right-click pipes holding chipsets to upgrade them. #1597
Replies: 49 comments
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I second this. |
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Ill give this a workabout |
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I don't like the idea of simply clicking with an chipset on a pipe to upgrade it. But the general idea of upgradable pipes is not bad. I currently think about making it part of the pipe controller. But than it will require not only the chip to upgrade but one additional item and some power. But I havn't decided anything yet. |
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@davboecki or a handy chargeable upgrade device (think to electric wrench in IC2 but only for upgrades) |
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@davboecki and I discussed a bit about maybe adding a Tab to the Pipe Controller. Adding Certain parts into the Pipe and Catalysing the Reaction with an Enderpearl. Upon the reactions start, the Pipe Disconnects and starts the Upgrade Process. After the Process, the Upgraded Pipe gets Re-Added to the Network. |
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I think the network (and item flow) should not be interrupted when you upgrade a pipe. |
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@theZorro266 Well, There needs to be a Penalty for replacing something in place. Wich System can handle an Augmentation while its running? Plus, mainly people do have functional Pipes at the outer edges of their Systems. So the effect would be minimal. Additionaly upgrade times Variates as the upgrades go higher. |
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I would be very pleased if it would work that way. Im okay with no disconnect, but that will require MUCH longer upgrade times |
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Yea disconnectiong would probably be bad in some situations. Rather disable the pipes functionality while it upgrades and require an ender pearl next to the crafting items to upgrade the pipe. And consume power while the upgrade is in progress. |
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Hmm, an ender pearl sounds quite expensive when you do not have mods farming them for you. A penalty in time when upgrading inplace sounds okay, because instant would be another "unnecessary" positive side-effect (also that penalty should be reasonable. I am thinking of around 5 seconds). Making the cost of an inplace upgrade in terms of material higher sounds okay, but it needs to be something that is not too hard to get when you just play with e.g. BuildCraft and Logistics Pipes. I think of something like the upgrade slots for JABBA. They are not too expensive, but an extra item you need to craft. I would like to see something like that. Also keep in mind that "upgrading takes power" is already an extra penalty. |
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@theZorro266 LP allready uses far less power than anything else, even with a big busy System. The powercosts should be quite big. My current System is eating far less RF/tick than a single upgraded Reactant Dynamo can produce! Wich is 160/tick |
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As soon as you get to the end and defeat the dragon ender pearls is a pretty cheap resource even without many mods. And before then the difficult thing is to find the endermen in the overworld, since you can always make a 2-block shelter and kill them off even with no armor and a cheap sword. |
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@Silwing Currently LP is playable on Peaceful difficulty too it would be break if you need ender pearl or even ender eye. I agree with the argument we need penality however we should not break the playability without any alternative. All resources that needed for LP is obtainable in Peaceful without any mob kill. Just my $0.02. |
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@theZorro266 and I discussed this and our current thoughts on this are:
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@davboecki cool I think it seems like a very good solution. Should the power consumption be configurable? |
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Will see about WAILA. Yes the power will be configurable. |
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@davboecki cool, thanks! |
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If you're going to add a feature to remove tedium, at least make it something that's actually better than the alternative. That, to me at least, seems worse than just breaking the pipe and replacing it in almost all cases. |
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It still saves you the work of break/replace and re-inserting modules |
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It's more the interruption of function and network and the time it takes for each one that's the problem, which takes less than 30 seconds. The current proposal by davboecki doesn't address these problems (in fact, seems to be bending over backwards to avoid addressing them while addressing the symptom of literally breaking, upgrading, and placing) and it feels like the kind of feature that's just never going to be used because it's not really any better, it costs more resources (ender pearls are hard to come by, even in modpacks if they don't have enderman grinders or enderlillies), and the fact it's triggered from within the pipe controller means it's both more inconvenient (especially to what I see as the most likely use scenario, which will be people upgrading a single mk4 chassis to mk5 as required) and obscure. What if, instead, a "Pipe Upgrader" item were crafted with say, paper and redstone circuits (which, for someone with the ability to make iron, gold, or diamond chipsets, is cheap-as-chips) (or something along those lines), which is then crafted with something like a diamond chipset, a gold chipset, a chipset and gear, etc. which can then be used to right-click on a pipe to upgrade it in the way that crafting it with the items crafted with the pipe upgrader would result, using up the upgrader and costing an amount of LP (say, 10k) in the process? |
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@TheLoneWolfling @HaniiPuppy @TheLoneWolfling Sadly you didn't say what exactly you find annoying about the proposal.. @Bitterholz Keep in mind that this is not only about chassis pipes. The plan is to make any (future) pipe that has several tiers upgradable (e.g. crafting pipe), which is even better \o/ @HaniiPuppy The network is not being interrupted. The time (which is configurable) just tells how long the pipe you are upgrading cannot be used. Items will still be routed through that pipe. Maybe in case of one chassis pipe, which does not have a lot of item traffic, this does not make sense. Yes, replacing it, as by breaking it and placing a new one, makes more sense. But also in the mid-game you may want to upgrade a chassis pipe from Mk4 to Mk5, because you do not have that many resources to "waste" them on another Mk4 you need to make for the Mk5. This will make more sense, when the new crafting recipes are done. We had a few suggestions making each chassis pipe with an higher tier based off the previous tier pipe. That means to craft an extra chassis Mk5, you need to craft Mk1 -> Mk2 -> Mk3 -> Mk4 -> Mk5. Same for the crafting pipes, as they will be based off of each other as well. In the end you will then need all items from the recipe for the next tier to actually upgrade a pipe. You suggested using a chipset, but just a chipset does not make sense, when the crafting recipe to make a pipe of the next tier is more expensive (that especially with crafting pipes). Which brings me to the next point.. We mentioned the ender pearl as an additional cost, but I also think that an ender pearl is too expensive. That is why @davboecki also mentioned a second item especially for upgrading a pipe (and that will be the default in the config). Although the crafting recipe of that item is not determined (suggestions are welcome), it will likely be not as expensive as an ender pearl. Having the upgrade functionality in the pipe controller made me disagree in the first place, too. I was concerned that the tool gets "too heavy" and results in being not used because it would be "too complicated". @davboecki assured me that this would not happen. Instead I also see this as a good opportunity to make the pipe controller being used more by players. Of course we will try to make the tool and the possibility of upgrading a pipe prominent through the wiki and/or some YouTubers, who make showcases on Logistics Pipes. The pipe controller is an amazing tool and if you haven't used it, you should try it out. I do not think that anyone will upgrade a pipe just because you need an extra tool. Also, in the pipe controller, it will be possible to see the upgrade in progress and the remaining seconds, which is again: cool. For those reasons I would like to not create a new item to upgrade pipes. In the end that would only save you two clicks, but it would have less features (like progress) and cost more. I wrote this huge comment, because different opinions are important. I do think discussions make sense and this whole issue actually shows a good parallelism to software engineering in the real world. If anyone is still not convinced, please give us your comment, but let me sum everything up first: Upgrading a pipe costs at least a pipe controller and an extra item (like the upgrade item or an ender pearl). You are free to configure the time that it takes and the cost of energy.
I honestly think that those points even overweight the cost of 30s and the cost of energy. I play Logistics Pipes for a few years now and I am confident that I will use this feature a lot. Especially when I have more than one pipe to upgrade, which happens later on in the game, when you want to replace many crafting pipes. This feature makes a lot of sense and is not overpriced, in my opinion. Thanks for reading. |
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I believe @HaniiPuppy already covered the concerns I had in a much more eloquent manner than I ever could. Suffice to say that adding time / resource costs for a convenience feature is a good way to prevent it from being used. If people are short on resources, they won't use it because of the resource cost, and if they aren't short on resources, they'll already be using the upgraded version even in places they don't need to because it saves time over the time cost of upgrading. The other factor is that if I'm needing to upgrade a pipe it's often precisely because it's being overloaded - for example when the input ender quarry chest isn't getting pulled from fast enough. Making it go offline for an amount of time makes things worse. |
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@TheLoneWolfling That is a matter of how you use Logistics Pipes. You cannot generally say that everyone will use Logistics Pipes that way and therefor the time penalty must be wrong. We know that not everyone uses Logistics Pipes the same way and therefor there are the config options. |
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It's a matter of how I, and everyone I've ever played on a server with LP with, uses LP. I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying that if it is implemented in the way you're saying it will probably will not be used much among the people I play with. |
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@HaniiPuppy "disable the pipe" only prevents items exiting at that point, or being requested from inventories attached to that pipe. items can still flow through the pipe in the normal logistics manner. |
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Yeah, the biggest advantage of this feature against with break & replace is not breaks the LP system. I had many-many setups where everything went wrong if I replaced a single pipe especially when I used LP to transport a solid fuel to my power generation room. Also a big LP system can suffer a serious outage if the system has to be rebuilt every time when you upgrade pipes w/ break & replace. The most important idea behind this feature was keeping your whole LP system consistent and online during the upgrade - you just will not be able to use the extra feature of the pipe (crafting of crafting pipe, modules on chassis pipes, requesting on request pipes, etc.) until it gets done. And I do not fear from being this feature unused. LP is not as popular as for example AE2 or XU so the target people are smart enough to see LP's advantage over these systems even if LP is a bit more complicated than the previously mentioned systems. These people would be happy if LP become a bit easier than before... 😄 |
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Sereous question...what is XU? |
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Extra Utilities. |
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Where logistics pipes can be upgraded by just crafting them with a chipset, it would be good to be able to right-click them holding a chipset to upgrade them, rather than having to break the block and craft them in a crafting grid, where you'd have to re-add any plugs, façades, modules, etc. and anything connected to the rest of the pipe system becomes disconnected while you do it.
I think this would be primarily ideal for upgrading mk4 chassis pipes to mk5 (mk4 + diamond chipset), it's a pain placing the modules back, and the covers when you do things like hide the piping in the walls and floors.
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