heavy missile spam

[Novaras]

3x improved manufacturing carriers from vaygr into hmf spam is honestly so good that its entirely on the vaygr player to lose the game rather than their opponent to win it

while I definitely agree that backstabbing etc is a good counter to such pushes, the fact of the matter is that the numbers for this build are straight up upsetting - ill use hgn dds as just one example:

Fear:

hmf under imp. build time is 31 seconds -> you build 800 hp per second
a destroyer does.. (565 / (6.5 / 4)) * 1.05 = 365 damage with its guns
per second
the torps do (3000 / 16) * 0.5 ~= 94 dps
dd does about 459 dps to frigates
so yeah dd cant chew the frigates fast enough..
under max fire control you reach about 600 dps which still isnt enough lol
conclusion: what the fuck
obviously you are actually building 2400 hp per second with triple hmf spam which is standard

so it takes 4 destroyers inside maximum fire control to just about equal the hp per second being thrown at them - im not saying HMF spam is game breaking and as mentioned, there are definitely some weaknesses to it, however its insanely overbearing to play against

backstabs are fine, but its also fine for the vaygr to split 1-2 hmfs to kill refineries
def fields are fine in a cloak... if they are supporting enough dps (which will also require fire control)
destroyers are mostly not fine
pulsars get sliced up by lances and missile vettes

im down for discussion on this but i really think hmf cloud has to be cut somehow - adding a few seconds to hmf build time would be a good start, and perhaps adding the dd regen thats been on the backburner for a while

[Novaras]

actually i just tested that out - hgn dd takes 24 seconds to kill a HMF with upgrades, so its not as bad as that but... by the time the vay is pushing with 3x hmf you have 2 destroyers at most, perhaps 3 with huge concessions elsewhere

I forgot the dd turrets have two barrels each:

Turrets: (565 / (6.5 / 4)) * 1.05 * 2 = 730DPS
Missiles: (3000 / 16) * 0.5 = 93DPS

So: 25900 / ((730 + 94) * 1.3) = 24s

Which is what I just timed to be true

[Novaras]

A better comparison is the stats you get per time and per ru:

LIVE STATS:

UNIT	DPS [raw]	DPS [heavy]	DPS [medium]
HMF	337	337	337
Ion (H)	314	314	314
Ion (K/T)	371	416	316
DD (H)	755	755	788

here we see expected results that everyone knows - DD is best per unit. For the frigates, hw1 ions kills caps best, HMF kills frigates best, hgn is shafted

BUILD STATS:

UNIT	HP/s	HP/ru	DPS/s [raw]	DPS/s [heavy]	DPS/s [medium]	DPS/ru [raw]	DPS/ru [heavy]	DPS/ru [medium]
HMF	822	37	11	11	11	0.48	0.48	0.48
Ion (H)	822	37	10	10	10	0.45	0.45	0.45
Ion (K/T)	433	37	12	13	10	0.53	0.59	0.45
DD (H)	1090	63	6.5	6.5	6.8	0.37	0.37	0.39

A little harder to tell what's going on here - if all races were given just one queue to build units with, the most valuable unit per unit time (assuming no unit caps and units are immortal) is the HMF - hw1 ion cannon is best against capitals (beats the DD): DD has more HP/s (by 2.5x) however the ion has 1.9x the DPS/s as well as 1.5x the DPS/ru, however its rolled quite hard by the HMF which itself only loses by a factor of about 1.25x for HP/s and recoups this hard by nearly doubling the DPS/s of the destroyer (in all matchups) as well as wiping the other frigates (frigates are its best matchup)

Healing is also a factor - a huge one. I'm pretty tired so I won't work out the HP/s/s here that you build per HMF, but its not hard to see that destroyers will NEED bonus regeneration to match the regeneration rate of (typically) 10 or more frigates. HW1 ions will also definitely need the help of support frigates to cover this bad matchup. I will mention at least though: HMFs heal 21 HP/s, meaning the healing factor of 37 HMFs would outheal a DD's dps - obviously this is impossible and focus fire is also a real thing, however DDs enjoy spreading their fire quite a bit and are often forced to switch targets as they need to kite to survive.

Logistics are another huge factor - Vaygr have the cheapest carriers in the game and technically still have the cheapest manufacturing upgrade (hgn is hidden behind adv. module). In general, vaygr will have +1 queues over their opponent for a given non-capital unit type. For capitals, the queue difference is usually +2 or +3. Keep in mind that the HMF is already winning stat matchups in single-queue comparisons. Now double or treble those stats.

---

Looking at this, I'd recommend upping HMF build time, making imp. man more expensive, or nerfing HMF HP. HMF is actually not terribly unbalanced - however it is the best. Truly.

[S5SS]

I think a 5s build time increase for both hiig and vaygr would work, I think hiig needs the same treatment too since its easiest just to preserve as much of the existing balance if it isn't broken. While hiig ions vs hmf would be the same mostly, everything else hiig has vs hmf would become better.

For DDs I think we should increase missile travel speed and reduce reduce frigate heal rate - Id be fine with a -50% nerf to heal.

That being said the other frigate build times could be looked at like flak which is 50s but is arguable worse than assaults rn - you almost never see them built and when they are, they don't seem that effective especially vs hw1.

[S5SS]

Also what if vaygr carrier build time was slightly increased, rn its 40s which is the same as a mob, I literally dont even care when I lose a carrier because I know I can build a new one so quickly. Id increase it to 45 seconds just as a minor nerf which also makes mass hmf arrive slightly later.

[Novaras]

Hgn carrier is 65 and 45 seconds,
Vgr carrier is 40 and 28 seconds.

So yeah fucking jesus christ 28 seconds is utter nonsense LOL. Vgr carrier also builds ~37% faster than the Hgn, so...

Hgn carrier: 65s => 74s (+15%)
Vgr carrier: 40s => 50s (+25%)

Leaving both fine imo - why nerf both? Because defensive macro is way too meta rn.