Change: Patriot Missile Battery standardisation #1412
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@@ -1979,8 +1979,8 @@ End | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Weapon PatriotMissileWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamage = 30.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamageRadius = 5.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ScatterRadiusVsInfantry = 5.0 ;When this weapon is used against infantry, it can randomly miss by as much as this distance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Can you describe how this affects targeting infantry? At what distances will it hit walking undamaged and damaged infantry now vs before? Can a GLA Terror still run to Turret and hit it? To me this looks like it needs some testing and comparison with original to draw the right conclusions. There was a problem hiding this comment. These value aren't new. This has essentially been tested countless times with EMP Patriots, which are some of the most frequently bombed / TCed base defences. There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok this was not clear. In the first post the changed Scatter values are not present in the value table. Perhaps it should be appended for visibility. There was a problem hiding this comment. I did mention that was the case in the description. I didn't think it was worth repeating the value for every weapon as it only applies to the ground weapon and I standardised it for all of them. There was a problem hiding this comment. Changed ScatterRadiusVsInfantry does not appear to make much difference. Tested with GLA Terror running towards Patriots. Attack Outcome is very comparable. What makes more of a difference right now is that in Patch, the Terror explodes and deals damage when killed by Patriot. But not in Original. I am not sure if this was planned. I will look into that. |
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| AttackRange = 275.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. This looks like an outrageous ground AttackRange for base defense. Can you compare this with Stinger, Tunnel, Gattling Cannon, Tank Hunter in Bunker? I suspect this outranges them all by a large margin. Firebase also has no more range advantage now. There was a problem hiding this comment. It now matches EMP Patriots which players are already very familiar with. There was a problem hiding this comment. I understand it matches EMP Patriot, but is the gained consistency automatically justified? How does it compare with the other base defenses now? Does USA need such powerful bunker capabilities? There was a problem hiding this comment. Well the issue is that vanilla Patriots are almost never used because the Firebase is almost always a better option, which lowers strategic diversity. The intent with this change is to also reduce the penalty / disadvantage incurred from using them without making them good enough to become the primary strategy. Doing so by standardising the values with the EMP Patriot seems like an acceptable way to do this, especially because it is effectively already well and truly tested. I would still expect them to be rarely used after this change, as players likely already consider the standard Patriot to be the same as the EMP one without the disabling effect (at least I did for a long time). There was a problem hiding this comment. Here are the ground ranges:
Image:
This change gives USA considerable defensive advantage over all other factions. Patriot also benefits from assisted Patriot group attacks. They will all fire earlier and kill quicker. This buff benefits USA Air Force, which is one of the best factions already. There was a problem hiding this comment. What this change really does is provide more defensive options, particularly in terms of dealing with aircraft. It's still overall more beneficial to use Firebases due to the Patriot's power dependency, which is quite high for the respective factions, who would need an additional power plant or control rods upgrade to cover the consumption (covered here). There isn't really much advantage to be gained here; it's more of a disadvantage reduction. |
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| DamageType = EXPLOSION | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DeathType = EXPLODED | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| WeaponSpeed = 1 ; locomotor specifies speed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -1989,7 +1989,7 @@ Weapon PatriotMissileWeapon | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireSound = PatriotBatteryWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireFX = FX_BuggyMissileIgnition | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| RadiusDamageAffects = ALLIES ENEMIES NEUTRALS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DelayBetweenShots = 100 ; time between shots, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipSize = 4 ; how many shots in a Clip (0 == infinite) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipReloadTime = 2000 ; how long to reload a Clip, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadsClip = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -2006,10 +2006,10 @@ End | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Weapon PatriotMissileWeaponAir | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamage = 30.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. It is not uncommon for Air weapons to deal less damage than the Ground weapon. Raising this can have undesired consequences. How does this compare with China Gattling Cannon and GLA Stinger(s)? There was a problem hiding this comment. All missile weapons, such as Stinger Sites, TOW Missiles, infantry missiles, aircraft missiles, etc. deal either the same or additional damage to aircraft. (And perhaps more bizarrely, Gattling Cannon and Gattling Tank air weapons deal In reality, Patriot Missile Systems are solely anti-air defences, so it is reasonable to expect that they are effective against aircraft. In addition, USA has fairly weak anti-air defences, and it makes sense to give the criminally underused Patriot some additional utility. It could help vs Combat Chinooks, stealth Comanches or Helixes, which can only be a good thing. There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok. Could we list missile damage types and values for Stinger for comparison? There was a problem hiding this comment.
There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok. So damage output of one clip with Stinger and Patriot is identical then, no? There was a problem hiding this comment. Patriot Batteries fire 4 missiles per volley whereas Stinger Sites fire 3 missiles per volley (though the Stinger rockets are all fired at once and accelerate faster, resulting in greater PDL penetration). However, it must be noted that the delay between shots adds to the overall reload time, so the reload times would look something like this: Stinger Site = 3 shots per 2000ms = 45 DPS Patriot Battery (patched) = 4 shots per (2000ms + (4 × 100ms)) = 2400ms = 50 DPS (assuming the 4 × 100ms adds up to 2400ms and not 4 × ~133ms to ~2533ms) Keep in mind that GLA gets the AP Rockets upgrade, which increases the Stinger Site's DPS even further. There was a problem hiding this comment. Stinger shoots just 3 in the Air? There are 4 soldiers on the site, so I always thought all 4 shoot, no? Or do you mean if one is dead? There was a problem hiding this comment. There are three soldiers in the nest! There was a problem hiding this comment. Silly me. No idea why I though there are 4 inside. There was a problem hiding this comment. Together with reduced ClipReloadTime the Air and Assist Weapon yield +40% DPS over original. Comparison with Stinger:
I think this should be compared with all defenses to give more clarity. This is significant buff. It is not clear to me whether or not it is desired. It is bad for China. Helix and Mig will die significantly quicker against this. The increased Anti Air range makes the effectiveness even greater. |
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| PrimaryDamageRadius = 5.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ScatterRadiusVsInfantry = 5.0 ;When this weapon is used against infantry, it can randomly miss by as much as this distance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AttackRange = 400.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. How does this new AttackRange 400 compare with China Gattling Cannon and GLA Stinger? There was a problem hiding this comment. China Gattling Cannon and GLA Stinger Site are both 400. There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok from that comparison it looks reasonable then. However, does Search and Destroy add 20% range to defenses? If so, that would grow to 480 now, and 420 before. +80 more range than other faction defenses would be significant surplus. There was a problem hiding this comment. I don't believe buildings are affected. There was a problem hiding this comment. There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok. I assume defenses also do not have CAN_ATTACK enum? There was a problem hiding this comment. I am still skeptical of range buff here. Patriot Weapon Assist will make ranges even better, as far back Patriots can assist forward Patriot. No other base defense can do this. There was a problem hiding this comment. Base defences do have The 275 range is already observable with EMP Patriots in 1.04, so there's really no new behaviour to consider here. |
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| DamageType = EXPLOSION | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DeathType = EXPLODED | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| WeaponSpeed = 600 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -2018,7 +2018,7 @@ Weapon PatriotMissileWeaponAir | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireFX = FX_BuggyMissileIgnition | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireSound = PatriotBatteryWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| RadiusDamageAffects = ALLIES ENEMIES NEUTRALS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DelayBetweenShots = 100 ; time between shots, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Delay will be 133 now instead of 266. Maybe we can take it to 200, between the original Patriot and EMP Patriot, or is 133 de facto the best looker? There was a problem hiding this comment. The idea is to match it with the EMP Patriot's fire rate to achieve consistency between the two. There was a problem hiding this comment. I understand. But this now is a significant buff for Patriot fire rate. Consistency would also have been achieved by raising EMP Patriot delay from 100 to 250. Why was 100 chosen as the to-go option? There are 3 options: 100 (equals 133) There was a problem hiding this comment. The reason I preferred 100 over 250 is due to the ability for EMP Patriots to take down King Raptors under the right conditions. Increasing the delay significantly reduces the Patriot's ability to break through PDLs. There was a problem hiding this comment. Visually looks proper. Logically it makes sense that it helps breaking PDL. This will also make it more effective against Avengers, not just against Air Force things. This change on its own gives a DPS buff of 17%, because ClipReloadTime is not increased to counter balance it. |
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| ClipSize = 4 ; how many shots in a Clip (0 == infinite) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipReloadTime = 2000 ; how long to reload a Clip, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadsClip = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -2036,9 +2036,9 @@ End | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ; For use with the Assisted Targeting Update. No Assist Listing and longer range | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Weapon PatriotMissileAssistWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamage = 30.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamageRadius = 5.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ScatterRadiusVsInfantry = 5.0 ;When this weapon is used against infantry, it can randomly miss by as much as this distance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AttackRange = 450.0 ; at least Regular's range + regular's request assist range | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Judging by comment, assist AttackRange needs to be changed too if base AttackRange is changed? There was a problem hiding this comment. I just matched it to the EMP Patriot's values. Perhaps it needs looking at as 450 is less than the regular range (275) + request assist range (200). |
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| DamageType = EXPLOSION ; ignored for projectile weapons | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DeathType = EXPLODED | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -2048,10 +2048,11 @@ Weapon PatriotMissileAssistWeapon | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireFX = FX_BuggyMissileIgnition | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireSound = PatriotBatteryWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| RadiusDamageAffects = ALLIES ENEMIES NEUTRALS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DelayBetweenShots = 100 ; time between shots, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipSize = 4 ; how many shots in a Clip (0 == infinite) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipReloadTime = 1000 ; how long to reload a Clip, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadsClip = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadWhenIdle = 2100 ; If I haven't fired in this long, I will reload on my own (rather than only after the last one is fired) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiAirborneVehicle = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiAirborneInfantry = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiGround = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -6693,6 +6694,7 @@ Weapon Lazr_PatriotMissileAssistWeapon | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipSize = 3 ; how many shots in a Clip (0 == infinite) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipReloadTime = 1000 ; how long to reload a Clip, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadsClip = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadWhenIdle = 2100 ; If I haven't fired in this long, I will reload on my own (rather than only after the last one is fired) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiAirborneVehicle = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiAirborneInfantry = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiGround = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -7613,7 +7615,7 @@ End | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Weapon SupW_PatriotMissileWeaponAir | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamage = 15.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamageRadius = 5.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ScatterRadiusVsInfantry = 5.0 ;When this weapon is used against infantry, it can randomly miss by as much as this distance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AttackRange = 400.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -7647,9 +7649,9 @@ End | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ; For use with the Assisted Targeting Update. No Assist Listing and longer range | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Weapon SupW_PatriotMissileAssistWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| PrimaryDamage = 15.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Note that this is a hidden nerf for USA Super Weapon. With this reduction, 2 EMP Patriots will take longer to kill disabled vehicles than originally. Although this is a very logical approach, it is difficult to agree with this implementation, considering that USA Super Weapon General has a hard time against other factions. May I suggest to explore streamlining damage to a higher value for all EMP weapons? This way damage evens out a bit more. To illustrate problem, I will provide table:
As you can see the more Patriots assist, the less damage it deals. The reduction of DelayBetweenShots will counter act this a bit, but not nullify the damage reduction. There was a problem hiding this comment. I don't agree that this change is a problem nor that it plays even a minor role in Super Weapon General's prospects against other factions. It does not make sense to focus a faction's balance on such an obscure and rare mechanic, particularly one which is practically never seen in competitive games. Moreover, giving EMP Patriots a damage boost would go against the faction and building's design philosophy and is unnecessary considering it's already one of the best defences in the game. Players are also very familiar with the current 4 × 15 damage output. There was a problem hiding this comment. All match types are part of competitive player scene, including 1v1v1v1v1v1. Camping with EMP Patriot is common with Super Weapon General. Bundling EMP Patriots is effective, as long as Power levels can be maintained. It can be difficult to break through these defenses. If we take away from EMP Patriot capabilities, it will inevitable weaken USA Super Weapon in some capacity. What is/are the goal(s) of this change? I am asking because if the goals were to
then making EMP Patriot less effective would not fit into the goals. There was a problem hiding this comment. Games such as 1v1v1v1v1v1 are casual, where politics and luck are far more influential on the outcome of a game than a particular faction / matchup. I would also argue that any player who places enough EMP Patriots in a single area for this change to make any meaningful difference is not playing at a competitive level. It's important to note that the EMP Patriot's efficacy lies in its disabling effect, not its damage. A delay of 2400ms (down from 3000ms) between volleys could be argued as an overall slight improvement to the assist weapon, despite the damage reduction, as more units will potentially be disabled. The damage reduction is also meaningless against aircraft, in which case the assist weapon is now more effective with its faster reload. Also don't discount the increased PDL penetration, which could make the difference between a group of Avengers or King Raptors remaining invulnerable or becoming entirely disabled / destroyed. This would directly affect USA Air Force, SWG's worst matchup. Regardless, such a change is highly unlikely to have any impact in 99% of games. The goals of this change are to:
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| PrimaryDamageRadius = 5.0 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ScatterRadiusVsInfantry = 5.0 ;When this weapon is used against infantry, it can randomly miss by as much as this distance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AttackRange = 450.0 ; at least Regular's range + regular's request assist range | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DamageType = EXPLOSION ; ignored for projectile weapons | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DeathType = EXPLODED | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@@ -7659,10 +7661,11 @@ Weapon SupW_PatriotMissileAssistWeapon | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireFX = FX_BuggyMissileIgnition | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| FireSound = PatriotBatteryWeapon | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| RadiusDamageAffects = ALLIES ENEMIES NEUTRALS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| DelayBetweenShots = 100 ; time between shots, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipSize = 4 ; how many shots in a Clip (0 == infinite) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ClipReloadTime = 1000 ; how long to reload a Clip, msec | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadsClip = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AutoReloadWhenIdle = 2100 ; If I haven't fired in this long, I will reload on my own (rather than only after the last one is fired) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Looks like this was forgotten to be added with There was a problem hiding this comment. Ok. Wonder why commy did not act on it. There was a problem hiding this comment. It makes assist bug worse, because now it likely fires the whole salvo instead of just what was left in the clip. There was a problem hiding this comment. Stubbjax, did you test this? Did it work ok? There was a problem hiding this comment. From my testing, it seems that once the Patriot's assist weapon is activated, it will remain active until it has emptied its clip. This means that if the assist weapon fires only half of its clip, the Patriot will then fire the rest of its clip as soon as an enemy enters its assist range. This is likely why we sometimes see Patriots fire missiles incredibly far distances seemingly randomly. This behaviour is demonstrated in the footage below. ASSIST.mp4ASSIST_MORE.mp4I was hoping that if the Patriot was allowed to reload its assist clip when idle, that it would then deactivate its assist weapon and return to its standard weapon like it does after a full volley. However, after testing with However, the good news is that the shorter assist weapon's delay between shots will slightly alleviate the issue, as the window during which the assist weapon can be interrupted is shortened. |
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| AntiAirborneVehicle = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiAirborneInfantry = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| AntiGround = Yes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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USA Defense cost sits between China and GLA. Looks ok, but again will benefit USA Air Force here.