Replace the term "PC" with "Windows"

[DASPRiD]

The term "PC" was misused for a long time already, but didn't matter that much, as long as there was only Windows present. Now with more Linux games popping up in the store, it'd make a lot of sense to replace the term "PC" with "Windows", as Linux itself runs on PCs as well.

One could argue that Mac OSX technically runs on PCs as well, but that could be seen as a special case as Macs are PCs specifically built by Apple.

[kupiakos]

That, and Mac harware can run Windows and Linux as well - even more ambiguity there.

[DASPRiD]

@kupiakos Exactly. This is the reason why there shouldn't be a mix of operation systems and platforms.

[waerloga]

Perhaps instead, since the hardware requirements are effectively the same. Just list the differing OS requirements along with the hardware. You'd end up with a smaller list.

[DASPRiD]

@waerloga It's not only the hardware requirements; the label is also used in other places, for instance:

[waerloga]

Ah, that would be the place to put Windows/Mac OS/Linux

[fur0n]

I agree it should say "windows" not pc because I have a Linux PC not a windows pc. so when i saw pc games i thought that included linux at first. Fixing this grammatical error would help with less confusion as to what games are linux games.

[z0id]

"Hi, I'm a Mac! And I'm a PC!" Sounds familiar? I think that's the cause of this "bug". It probably doesn't sound strange to Americans (anymore) because of Apple's PR dep, but to me, as an European, it's a bit like "I'm a Toyota! And I'm a car."

[chippey]

Agreed - would also like to see this changed.

[Tele42]

since Macintosh is abbreviated, perhaps a set of 3 letter references could be used: Mac, Win, and Tux

[mattyy1hp]

+1
PC is personal computer - hardware.
If a game is "for PC" and running only on Windows, it's game for Windows.

[ancow]

since Macintosh is abbreviated, perhaps a set of 3 letter references could be used: Mac, Win, and Tux

Tux is a mascot, not an abbreviation or an OS, so that would be inappropriate.

[lopho]

Then maybe: Mac, Win, Nix

though nix could be understood as Unix, Minix, Penix (sry :D), but its the only 3 letter abbr. that would fit.
alternative: Lin
or just freaking Linux, its short already, unlike Macintosh and Windows.

[mewt666]

does it have to be a 3 letter abbreviation ? Linux is only 5 letters,
hardly gonna break any designs

On 19 January 2013 16:41, lopho notifications@github.com wrote:

Then maybe: Mac, Win, Nix

though nix could be understood as Unix, Minix, Penix (sry :D), but its the
only 3 letter abbr. that would fit.
alternative: Lin
or just freaking Linux, its short already, unlike Macintosh and Windows.

—
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//issues/737#issuecomment-12456341.

[normcf]

Perhaps just using the three logos (resized to fit) would alleviate any language issues too.



If, ever in the future, valve was to do Linux on ARM, then this would break because, I'm sure, the games list would be different.

[johndrinkwater]

[MrSchism]

Frankly, this is the source of "PC" in its most common usage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible

As such, Windows and Dos (or dos-based) machines are PCs.

[DASPRiD]

@MrSchism: According to that article, it should be called "Wintel" though, instead of "PC" ;)… Also, machines are not Windows based, but windows is PC based, right the other way around.

[MrSchism]

Windows actually requires an "IBM-Compatable PC"

[DASPRiD]

@MrSchism Okay, then let's label it "The only system which only runs on IBM-Compatible PCs and nothign else", if you want to avoid the term "Windows" :D… Oh wait, Mac OS/X also only runs on that now, doesn't work anymore :)

[MrSchism]

Could also just point to tradition. Mac is still Mac, despite being Intel-based now. Mac has been a "PC" platform that runs off of a "Power-PC" chip. But it's nitpicking.

The biggest issue is the fact that there are so many more important issues.

[Gartral]

@DASPRiD er.. Windows also runs on ARM.. in the form of Windows RT.. or Window on ARM.

[Tele42]

If the adjustment were to be made forward-looking, perhaps a OS symbol (tile) over a generic PC symbol (tile), and for ARM, a OS symbol over a generic tablet symbol, with the platform gray on white to contrast with the white on gray symbol. The main point is to express that the arch and OS are expressed at the same time clearly.

[kupiakos]

@Tele42 Do realize that Valve has stated they will not support the Windows 8 Store, which is the only source of applications for Windows RT Devices, so Steam could (and would) not be supported on Windows RT devices.
Also note that, when Windows RT was being criticized for closing its ecosystem, Windows RT was described as "[n]ot Windows anymore."
We won't ever have to worry about Windows RT devices and Steam. Frankly, Windows RT sucks.
I think the simple solution is replace PC with Windows, as the bug states.

[Tele42]

@kupiakos: yes, I am aware, but windows is not the only OS headed towards mainstream support on ARM. The topic of the issue report has split into two parts, the labeling of the of games category "PC" and the use of "PC" as a platform. I was just adding a thought to the latter half.

[MrSchism]

@kupiakos The simplest solution is to read "PC" and look at the icon (clearly Windows) and leave things as they are so devs can focus on bigger issues.

[DASPRiD]

@MrSchism Do you really believe that the same developers working on engines, games and such are also responsible for this? Seriously, they are likely part of gettext files or such, and thus not even part of the work of developers. And even if so, it'd for the web developers, a completely other group of people.

[MrSchism]

@DASPRiD Valve Software is flatland. These sort of requests are either handled directly OR are handed directly to whoever handles it. Either way, those guys need to be made aware of the issue and THOSE guys also have stuff on their plates.

[DASPRiD]

@MrSchism And you think that this will take up so much time for them? Seriously, that's FUD.

[MrSchism]

I don't think that means what you think it does....

[cjwijtmans]

"@cjwijtmans actually, it would be ubuntu. :)"

I use gentoo not ubuntu. what do they have in common? GNU. And there are distros that use BSD or hurd instead of linux, software such as steams talks to GNU, not linux or hurd or BSD. You are in the very wrong here.

[ribeirobreno]

I use gentoo not ubuntu. what do they have in common? GNU. And there are distros that use BSD or hurd instead of linux, software such as steams talks to GNU, not linux or hurd or BSD. You are in the very wrong here.

@cjwijtmans GNU Software, as we agree, is a part of several linux distributions. Valve has chosen to support "Linux" and for now they support Ubuntu as we can see from their support website.
You are correct to say steam "talks" to GNU but Valve has clearly stated support for a very specific (GNU?/)Linux distribution that GNU does not like and GNU has even said something about steam. ;)

---

TL;DR: I'm not wrong neither you.

[cjwijtmans]

Irrelevant, several distros have steam in their repos. My point still stand and yours still falls.

[kupiakos]

@cjwijtmans @ribeirobreno
Hey - third party here.
Who cares what Steam technically is capable of running on? Good developers are the ones who know their users. The typical users, and the ones we want to move to Linux (the gamers), only know the term "Linux".
Steam has named this product "Steam for Linux". It may run on BSD, and technically runs on GNU, and Linux can mean Android, but Valve has called it Steam for Linux to appeal to the average gamer.
Very few (non-developers) know that Android runs on the Linux kernel. The only thing about the current naming convention that could possibly confuse any normal person is the term 'PC'.

tl;dr: Windows, Mac, Linux is just fine, even if it may be technically incorrect.

[cjwijtmans]

Windows OSX GNU.

Macs can run windows and linux, so Mac can be confusing.

Also the federal US govt. has advocated using the metric system for ages. Yet people stay retarded and use the imperial system which is very inaccurate and illogical. Basically because the media keeps using it because people are stupid, and people are stupid because the media keeps using that stupid system. Circle jerking here.
Its as simple as googling "GNU" or "OSX" and the "average" gamer has a better picture of what it is.

[kupiakos]

@cjwijtmans
....oh great. We've got another one.
Look, you're comparing apples and oranges here. We're comparing names, not systems of measurement. Are you going to criticize the (at least American, afaik) military for calling kilometers "clicks" even when they're technically called kilometers and someone may confuse what a "click" is? I'd hope not.

Every programmer needs to spend some more time trying to talk and make products for the normal public. It's all marketing, really. A well named product feature shouldn't have to be looked up to know what it is (with exceptions for fancy sounding words).

GNU sounds ugly, and 98% of people will mispronounce it the first time (and be very adamant that it's pronounced 'new'). They'll look it up on Google and see it stands for 'GNU's not Unix!' and think "that's weird, an acronym's not supposed to have itself in it....and I still don't get what it is. I'm pretty sure Unix is something really old and ugly though."
This kind of thing is common, and I've experienced this sort of thing many times. GNU just doesn't roll off of the tongue, and neither does GNU/Linux.

Here's a very similar misnaming:
Windows 7 is actually Windows NT 6.1
Windows 8 is actually Windows NT 6.2
Windows 8.1 is actually Windows NT 6.3 (last I checked)

I'm sure the NT kernel guys are annoyed that the marketing department went ahead and made these choices, but Windows is probably better off for it. Windows 6.2 doesn't sound like a big update to Windows 6.1, and neither of them really sound that great. Mac OS X makes these incremental updates, but they're updates are usually small and they focus more on their "nicknames" of cats.

If someone comes up to me running Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or whatever distro I happen to be running, and asks "hey, is that Linux?" I don't snarkily disapprove and say "No, it's GNU/Linux." I say "Yes, I'm running Linux, (Fedora/Ubuntu/Debian) in fact." If someone asks about Android and how it has Linux but it can't do all of the things my computer can, I simply say "almost everything above the core of the system is different, so that's why it can't."

The important thing:
PC will confuse people (outside of the US). Windows is preferable.
Mac won't confuse people
Linux won't confuse people.

Products must refer to the common name, not the technically correct name, and that's the important thing. The goal of this naming change is to prevent confusion amongst the typical Steam user, not make them more confused.

As a last note, calling GNU/Linux just GNU may be misconstrued as "GNU Operating System" which, according to Wikipedia, runs historically on the GNU Hurd kernel. (Normal Person: What's a kernel?)

tl;dr: Windows/Mac/Linux is unambiguous to gamers and rolls off the tongue better.

[cjwijtmans]

So many fallacies in your comment.

"Are you going to criticize the (at least American, afaik) military for calling kilometers "clicks"
It is about using the correct terms that have the correct definitions. Not about using words that having the same meaning, because they dont.

"GNU sounds ugly, and 98%"
Leave opinions to yourself.

"Every programmer needs to spend some more time trying to talk and make products for the normal public."
Again leave opinions to yourself.

"It's all marketing, really."
It is human stupidity.

"PC will confuse people (outside of the US). Windows is preferable.
Mac won't confuse people
Linux won't confuse people."

• True, Windows is Windows.
• Mac can mean many things, from x86 incompatible computers to ipods. So yes its confusing, ambiguous. And has nothing to do with operating systems.
• Yet again Linux can mean many things. Android? Embedded systems? A computer running linux but not GNU will never launch steam so yet again ambiguous.

"Windows/Mac/Linux is unambiguous to gamers"
Biggest fallacy in this comment yet. Nice closure of your trash comment.

[kupiakos]

@cjwijtmans
You should get out more and talk to some normal people. Really - it'd be good for you.
The programmers make the program, but the salesman and marketers get that program to people - and they're the ones who decide what a product is called. It is a fact of life in the business world.

I said Mac and Linux wouldn't confuse people. I meant to say the average consumer. I can guarantee that those terms won't confuse them. Seriously - go to someone who doesn't know what a kernel is and ask them this. These terms may "confuse" a robot who can only takes things to a literal, discrete level.

And yes, GNU does sound ugly. I personally like it, but I'm a programmer. My opinion does not reflect the majority of people. I'm speaking for everyone (I deal with normal people on a regular basis) that I tell GNU is pronounced "guh-new" - and they're confused a gnu (the animal) is pronounced "new" and they're confused why someone would name it the same and pronounce it differently.
My boss, a very technical guy, is in Windows world - it's his business. He knows what the term Linux is. He didn't have a clue what GNU meant. When I explained to him, his comment was "I'll call it Linux because it's the term everybody else uses." While his comment on everybody may not be correct, he was certainly correct about the majority of people who know the term Linux.

Go on Google. Search "Linux". 587 million results.
Go on Google. Search "GNU/Linux" 32.2 million results.
Which term do you think is bigger and more significant to the average community?
(Searching just "GNU" may be misleading, as GNU is also an animal, a song, a university, a food market, etc....but nevertheless, it only gets 121 million results - far less than Linux)

Note: I have never heard anyone refer to an iPod as a Mac. iPods run on the Darwin kernel, nothing more significant than that.

tl;dr: The people matter, not the programmer.

[cjwijtmans]

"You should get out more and talk to some normal people. Really - it'd be good for you."
ad hominem.

"Go on Google. Search "Linux". 587 million results.
Go on Google. Search "GNU/Linux" 32.2 million results.
Which term do you think is bigger and more significant to the average community?"

google justin bieber, now google chester bennington.
Who is the better singer?

"I'm speaking for everyone (I deal with normal people on a regular basis) "
Yeah a handful of people you meet represent the whole of human society.

"I'll call it Linux because it's the term everybody else uses."
I will call it feet because thats what everyone measures in even though everyone has a different size feet.

Indeed TL;DR, a bunch of crap. you add nothing to the discussion.

[kupiakos]

"ad hominem"
"Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement lists ad hominem as the second worst type of argument in a disagreement."

Your Google counterpoint shows more people know the name Justin Bieber than Chester Bennington, and that name is apparently more significant to people as a whole - whether to make fun of him or be a fangirl.
I agree, Chester Bennington is a much better singer than Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber just gets more press.
GNU/Linux is the technical name of the OS. Linux gets more press. I won't criticize people for calling it GNU/Linux, but criticizing those who call the GNU/Linux OS "Linux" is ridiculous, because although it is technically incorrect, it is the popular name.

[cjwijtmans]

"Linux gets more press."
Do you have any evidence of this? There is no way to check if all the references on google search mean GNU/Linux distros or are just talking about the linux kernel. There are many linux articles that are about the kernel. So yet again your comment is full of fallacious statements.

[kupiakos]

sigh...this argument is getting long winded. Let's end it soon before Godwin's Law takes effect.

Linux is better known than GNU. Talk to someone in a business environment. Talk to a someone who has seen Linux maybe once or twice. Talk to a Windows programmer. Talk to a parent, even. If they have heard of Linux (and it's very possible they haven't), there's only a slim chance they've heard of GNU.
Search on CNN. Search on NYTimes. Search on BBC News. They all have 10 times as many results for Linux than GNU/Linux (Note: I think CNN treats / as an OR operator). Only 1/10 of the Linux articles on those sites contain the word "kernel" This also applies to general Google results.

The GNU/Linux-naming-exclusive folks represent a very small, yet adamantly vocal, portion of the general public. Heck, the people who know the term Linux is disturbingly small. It's just the way it is, and the goal here is to inform users, not confuse them.

[cjwijtmans]

Nobody(in their right mind) cares about junk news sites. And yes linux is better known as the kernel, if you said LINUX DISTRO you might have had a point since the majority of them use GNU. Yet again still a comment full of fallacies.

[kupiakos]

...junk news sites? These are respected news organizations trusted by millions of people.
Linux is better known as the kernel inside the Linux community. It is known as an OS outside of it. It may be incorrect, but that's the way it is.

This is getting ridiculous - I obviously can't communicate this fundamental idea of popular opinion to you.
You're acting like a FSF Nazi. There we go, Godwin's law is fulfilled - discussion over. Keep saying everybody is an idiot for ever thinking Linux is an OS, because that is the way to a happy and fulfilling life.

Kupiakos is out. Peace.

[cjwijtmans]

"...junk news sites? These are respected news organizations trusted by millions of people."
justin bieber has 700 million+ hits on google search so obviously justin bieber is a respected singer.

"Linux is better known as the kernel inside the Linux community. It is known as an OS outside of it. It may be incorrect, but that's the way it is."
Millions of people (if not billions?) claim god exists, so we should all subject to the stupidity of the general public.

It will be a joy to see mr fallacious claptrap leave the discussion.

[stevethepocket]

google justin bieber, now google chester bennington.
Who is the better singer?

Nobody would argue that we should start calling Chester Bennington "Justin Bieber" just because Bieber is more famous, though. That's what this conversation is about, terminology. The point is that far more people refer to this operating system as "Linux", and therefore that's a good term to put on a store used by those people, specifically. People who do not refer to Android phones as "Linux" and definitely do not refer to their iPods as "Macs" (literally nobody in the universe does that, by the way, especially anyone who works for Apple).

Or to put it another way, the OS buttons don't specify which version of Windows or MacOS is required to use the game either. But people know better than to assume that the games aren't meant to run on MacOS 8 or Windows 95, even before they go to check the system requirements. Likewise, people aren't going to see "Linux" and think their BSD/Linux system will run the games without tweaks.

[lopho]

"Likewise, people aren't going to see "Linux" and think their BSD/Linux system will run the games without tweaks."

Of course they won't, as you can't just run two Kernels and no userland.

[cjwijtmans]

"The point is that far more people refer to this operating system as "Linux" "
Linux is not an operating systems its a kernel.

"That's what this conversation is about, terminology."
The correct term would be GNU

"therefore that's a good term to put on a store used by those people,"
Therefore its a good idea to put God in every sentence because the retarded general public is religious.
Its also a good idea for the fed Govt to stop advocating the metric system because the public only understands the retarded imperial system.
If people like you were in Govt we would evolve into apes.

"people aren't going to see "Linux" and think their BSD/Linux system will run the games without tweaks."
GNU/linux doesnt even run steam without tweaks because the closed nvidia drivers(which are better than the nouveau drivers by miles) taint the kernel and should not come standard with a distro.

"People who do not refer to Android phones as "Linux" "
Thats is because Android runs on top of linux and makes up the operating system that the Apps rely on. Therefore it would also be wise to call it GNU here and not linux. (linux runs on many devices like washing machines, cars, etc.)

"check the system requirements."
Except windows 8 is an evolution of windows 7.
Android or whatever that is not GNU is a completely different operating system.

"people aren't going to see "Linux" and think their BSD/Linux system will run the games without tweaks."
Also in your logic people will see "Linux" and think oh this cant run on my ubuntu laptop.

Anyone else with fallacies?

[MrSchism]

This has spiraled a bit far, so time for some step-in and address some points and some flaming. This isn't a forum; the issue has been marked as reviewed and points have been considered.

Further, don't regress into flamers; we don't need that here. Make your point and be done with it.

[Lord-Avallon]

I think it would be great to change PC to Windows, Windows/Mac/Linux or Windows/OSX/Linux is ok in my opinion.

[chinoto]

+1
It would be nice if Mac OSX, (GNU/)Linux, and FreeBSD were all compatible with each other, then we could just say "Windows and *Nix" and be done with it.

[Sinihopea]

+1

I've talked about this for years now that people should talk about "Windows games" instead of "PC games" when they refer to games released for Microsoft Windows. That just makes more sense since PC as acronym refers to any "personal computer". Not just the IBM-PC compatibles that are running Microsoft's software platform. I understand that it wouldn't be perfect to call things "Windows / OS X / Linux" but it sure would make at least make some sense.

[Leopard1907]

Gaben won't do that.

Because he is earning well and most of it comes from Windows aka PC. He will not gonna do anything that may offend Windows people.

In fact ; if Microsoft wouldn't put their own store into Windows and wouldn't announce UWP project, Gaben won't be interested with SteamOS/Linux.

We are just a spare tire to them ( companies are living for money) to just in case, against that possible successful Ms Store. If Ms announce ; we just decided that Ms Store and Uwp are bad ideas and we're shutting them forever , all of a sudden SteamOS project will vanish

Sorry but that is the truth.

[DASPRiD]

I'm not entirely sure, but this issue seems to be fixed across the entire store by now. A quick check reveals the following terms being used across the entire site:

• Windows
• Mac OS X
• SteamOS + Linux

I assume this issue can be closed then, unless I oversaw something?

[stevethepocket]

As far as I know, yeah.

[h1z1]

Thread is hillariously PC.. PC in computer venacular is correct. It's describing the hardware. Mobile would describe a modbile device. I certainly wouldn't disagree additional labels could be added for specific support but there are logistical and challenges since many of them are registered trademarks. Developer may not necessarily endorse nor fully comply with those even if they do technically run.

It's really not much different from "SteamOS". Though it's based for the most part on Ubuntu, they can't say Ubuntu as it's not completely. It's a fairly critical distinction since it goes to the heart of why people insist on saying "GNU/Linux". Not surprising any vendor, like hosting companies, who claim to have X dsitro but include their own changes, fall under the same legal trouble.

[eiglow]

Seems like this issue can be closed now, it's been fixed for more than a year.