ACE3 medical: Unconsciousness miscalculated on limbs. (Unexpected behavior after february 2022 update)

[olimolly]

Mods (complete and add to the following information):

• Arma 3: 2.10 Main branch latest
• CBA: 3.15.7 latest
• ACE3: 3.15.0 latest

Description:
With ace medical setting "summa of traumatisme" (ace_medical_fatalDamageSource), the pain on limbs is miscalculated and not turning unconscious the AI. (ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance).
The consequence is that AI are ignoring damages if you don't touch their head or torso. It takes more or less 30 bullets for an AI to die aiming only at legs, even with (ace_medical_AIDamageThreshold) at minimum.
I was using those settings before multiple times, and AI legs were never that much insensitives. That is why it makes me think it's a bug after those tests again, different weapons different units, armor, uniforms...
Aiming at the torso will make the same damage as usual (depending armor vest off course).

I tested with different settings but here is an export you can load:
pastebin ace medical settings

Steps to reproduce:
Follow [https://ace3.acemod.org/img/wiki/user/issue_flowchart.webp](this flowchart)!

1. load medical settings as this value being important for the test:
   force ace_medical_fatalDamageSource = 1; force ace_medical_AIDamageThreshold = 0.143474; force ace_medical_painCoefficient = 1; force ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance = 0.5; force ace_medical_bleefingCoefficient = 0; // we care pain only.
2. Place a lot of AI on careless mode. (with a lot of ammo)
3. Shot an AI in the legs only,

Optionnal: check the pain of the unit between shots to see if it goes moderate or intense, as I understood, Unconsciousness should depend of ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance but it's not anymore since the february update.

Expected behavior:
AI still standing after a full magazine in the legs.

Where did the issue occur?

• On dedicated, Editor (Singleplayer) / Editor (Multiplayer)
• Can't reproduce in Ace Virtual Arsenal (even with setting load in "server")
• Can't reproduce on SOG DLC and ace compat.

Log Files (useless):

• Link to pastebin rpt

Problem:

73a7dbd
The february update lower the painMultiplier, having for side effect:

// tone down the pain a tiny bit to compensate
painMultiplier = 0.8;

1. The value of ace_medical_pain is not increasing enough on limbs damages,
2. The value of const ace_medical_const_painUnconscious is too high to be reached by ace_medical_pain

Consequences:
The const ace_medical_const_painUnconscious is almost never reached (0.5 by default).
==> It makes the setting ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance useless / ineffective.
==> It makes limbs insensible to pain.
==> It makes limbs useless parts to shoot at. (If you don't want to wait or watch AI losing their blood for some reason, like a static MG shooting at you or AI behaving like painless puppets, etc.)

Additional code:
https://github.com/acemod/ACE3/blob/master/addons/medical_damage/functions/fnc_determineIfFatal.sqf

Let's take a step back of coding and think about how much pain a person should experience before losing consciousness...
I don't wish anyone to experience that but I'm pretty sure most would fall down at least and feel unbearable pain.
I would just remind that pain is a brain mecanisme that makes you lose consciousness if too intense.

It was the main purpose of initial pain system before it was reworked in february update and it seems that part has been forgotten during re-development.

What is sure is that a full magazine of any assault rifle should send an AI unconscious when the resistance settings are at minimum.
leg damage

use of painUnconsciousChance:
if ((_headDamage > _damageThreshold / 2) || {_bodyDamage > _damageThreshold} || {(_painLevel >= PAIN_UNCONSCIOUS) && {random 1 < EGVAR(medical,painUnconsciousChance)}}) then { [QEGVAR(medical,CriticalInjury), _unit] call CBA_fnc_localEvent; };

Temporary solution I'm using: overwrite the constant in the init.sqf:
ace_medical_const_painUnconscious = 0.35
Default is 0.5 and never reached.

Screenshots:
screenshot leg dammage

mp4: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/976224710385877002/1017734574224199791/Replay_2022-09-09_11-52-39.mp4

[STyx2909]

I need to check my own ACE medical settings, but I think yours a bit off. Though, it is not the "classic" values from Ace interface, so I may be wrong.
FYI, I am using settings "either" for unconsciousness and death.

[olimolly]

Only those settings matters for the issue.
Adjusting those settings should make AI weak or strong.

ace_medical_fatalDamageSource ==> Make sure it is not set to vitals organs only.
ace_medical_AIDamageThreshold ==> 0.10 is weak and 10.0 is strong. (1.0 is default)
ace_medical_painCoefficient ==> 1 is default.
ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance ==> Not doing any effects anymore, it is the consequence of the issue.

You could also set bleeding to 0 for practical matter.

[Mike-MF]

From what I remember seeing somewhere, pain doesn't multiply per wound so if the wounds inflicted aren't causing enough pain to fall unconscious, they won't. The setting does still work as it's happened to me numerous times since you opened this issue.

As for the legs being "incredibly resistant" there really isn't anything in your legs that would cause you to die. The head or body are where all your vitals are. So death by leg wounds is usually blood loss. People have lost both legs to mines, IEDs or mortars and survived. Arma isn't able to simulate this so there really isn't anything you can do.

As an added bonus comment for you, AI will not routinely mag dump your legs. They tend to go for your head or center mass.

[olimolly]

You are missing the point sire.

1. First, Ace give ability to change settings. It's not about realism or life but having choice of settings and behaviors in Arma with ace3.

2. Damage into legs can put people unconscious. So, if AI are set to die directly when falling unconscious. They just can die by damage in the leg. Sorry for the implicit shortcut I made. It was obious to me but maybe not everyone. It what I mentionned in the description of the issue.

About the ace_medical_painUnconsciousChance setting.
It is technically working when the ace_medical_const_painUnconscious is reached.
But with default 0.5 it is almost never reached.
So, it why I'm saying it is not doing any effects anymore.

Once again, I was not having that issue before.
I remember I wanted that leg sensibility for sniper missions because I wanted to consider a 12.7 in a leg or arm enough. (Whatever). I just mean it was definitly different before.

But now, to get the behavior I want, I have to override the ace_medical_const_painUnconscious to 0.35 more or less.

When ace_medical_fatalDamageSource summa of traumatisme is set,
Please don't tell me it's okay to have 31 penetrating wounds and 17 medium avulsions and being able to be on your feet.
cf screenshot leg

[Mike-MF]

Please don't tell me it's okay to have 31 penetrating wounds and 17 medium avulsions and being able to be on your feet.

You would bleed out and die, very quickly and before they die blood loss would make them unconscious.

ace_medical_bleefingCoefficient = 0;

But you disabled that.

[olimolly]

I disabled it for tests.

I am talking about pain effects. It is what I matter and what the issue is about. Not bleeding.

It got reduced in 73a7dbd could be the reason.

[pterolatypus]

That line you refer to only applies to contusions (bruises) so isn't relevant here.
Due to a combination of other changes, however, limbs should now be taking about 1/3 less damage than before resulting in smaller wounds.
Unfortunately the video you provided doesn't prove anything about the pain values because you've set the pain coefficient so high. I'll double check what typical pain values should be in this case but iirc medium avulsions and velocity wounds should shake out at between 0.2-0.5 pain which will indeed not reach the current threshold for unconsciousness - large wounds should do however.

IMO there are two issues here:

• Pain not stacking at all doesn't seem logical.
• The underlying "random chance to KO on limb hit" system is unsatisfying. At least the chance should go up somewhat as the pain does.

[olimolly]

That line you refer to only applies to contusions (bruises) so isn't relevant here.
It's an example of overhaul tone down in your update.

large wounds should do however. https://www.zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=22/44/mcqe.jpg
Yes it should but it does not (if what you mean by "large wound" is red status. (48 bullets in a leg.)

Pain not stacking at all doesn't seem logical. from a coding approach, could be logical.

But from a human behavior, it's not making any sense for being ravaged by a full magazine and still standing and shooting back to players. So there is a problematic question about unconsciousChance setting. First, how should the threshold be reached ? So then we could use that unconsciousChance setting again including limbs.

If you don't like this solution, please keep going on your overhaul rework on pain. There could be other solutions.

I am really annoyed in the fact limbs are useless to shoot at but thank you for considering the issue.
I appreciate your efforts after all.

[olimolly]

#8394