Pinout #2
Comments
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The protocol does feel very serial like, and it's infuriating that if one device is connected (or the tub thinks is still connected), another cannot connect, which would also point to masking a single serial port. There are a few pieces of evidence that it's more than an off-the-shelf serial-to-wifi chipset, though:
Assuming it is serial to the actual tub, though, none of these special add ons in their adapter should preclude the ability to insert your own serial device instead of the wifi adapter, and control the tub. It likely would preclude the ability to use the native app (which could be solved by setting up a proxy that pretends to be a tub-at least for local access). Given the flakiness of their wifi adapter, though, it may be a good route. Unfortunately I'm not much of a low level hardware guy, so don't have the know-how to decipher the pin out. I could probably learn, but any time I get to work on this project would probably be taken up first by deciphering more of the protocol. |
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Great info, my buddy has a tub as well and picked up a TTL->USB converter. We're able to get data to spew from the tub to putty. In the process of slamming together a quick app to get the actual stream, but in the meantime, if you can check if there's any web interface exposed by your wifi module that might give a clue as to the proper settings for baud rate, etc. that would be very helpful. Might be easier to email me directly at los93sol@gmail.com |
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I'd rather we keep the conversation in a public forum so that if it gets abandoned, at least someone else can see what work we've done. That said, the following ports are open according to nmap:
When I connect to either of those ports, I just get dead air, even attempting to speak the proper protocols for those ports. As for actual app - are you comfortable with ruby? I could modify my gem here to work against a serial port pretty easily for you. Which pins are you connecting to which on your adapter? |
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I believe we are getting valid data out of it now using 115200, 8, N, 1.... 7E-1C-FF-AF-00-00-61-0F-26-00-00-01-00-00-0C-00-00-02-00-00-00-00-00-00-61-00-00-3B-7E |
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I'm working through it now, but so far the message start/message end seems correct, the message length also appears correct so I just need to decode a few of these manually against your documentation to see what all I can glean from it. I'm stoked that a simple $10 off the shelf adapter seems to be working |
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Yup, those look super familiar, yet different than any actual messages I have documented so far. |
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We'll have values from another tub on Sunday if things go well, I have a Bullfrog X7 so expect output more similar to what you have with your A7. Different cable for mine since I don't have the TTL port on mine though so fingers crossed! |
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Is there a trick to being able to send control messages? We were able to validate out checksums are correct using the sample payload garbled1 posted in another thread here, but so far no luck with a simple toggle lights command. |
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When using wifi, you can't use any control messages until you've sent one or two messages asking for the configuration. hopefully that's the trick |
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I have a ton of code to do communication with one of these things in my gnhast repo here on github. The code is in C, but I have most of the routines commented with the protocol as far as I've been able to decode it. The wifi one spams me like crazy when I connect to it. 4 messages per second. Does yours do the same over serial? |
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@garbled1 nice, thanks for the tip! Now I can compare notes against yours. My personal favorites are "BMTR_PANEL_NOCLUE1" and "BMTR_PANEL_NOCLUE2" :). Other than that things are looking pretty familiar. I am curious what an AUX device is? Apparently my tub is fairly simple - I just have two pumps, a circ pump, and one light. |
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We are seeing the same thing, the raw bus is VERRRRRY chatty! |
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Still no luck sending commands, looks like there must be some initialization or translation that the wifi module is doing....or we don't have the connection parameters quite right. We are able to generate fully valid payloads that mimic what is documented as toggle commands and the commands sent from a real button press, but still no luck |
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@ccutrer AUX is basically a separate VAC output circuit, 2 amps I think, that you can connect a load to. For example, lets say you have one of those music controllers, you can wire it into the aux out, and power it via that. I found that one of them, will return my spa controller's model name, and serial number, encoded in ascii. I'd really like to see what yours says for that, to see if it's universally decodable. So, the wifi connection is the same port type that the panel connects to. you can literally swap them around and nothing notices. Maybe you could somehow try to intercept data from the panel and see what it's saying to the spa? |
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@garbled1 We captured some logs early on with the device on a Y adapter and were able to see the panels messages. We actually have a full capture of the boot process as well and the main board seems to broadcast the results of its memory test on boot too. Currently we have it connected to a separate port and can still see the panel flooding the bus with 5-6 messages a second, it's crazy how chatty this thing is! |
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After playing with the settings I was using the raw serial bus protocol appears identical to the wifi module, the status messages are 100% identical down to the check byte. I still cannot get the tub to acknowledge any requests sent to it, and interestingly, where the wifi protocol message type is 0ABF11, they keypad itself sends 11BF11, not sure if this is an encoding issue or not though. When we were logging initially our status messages weren't 100% aligned to what you see but that turned out to be because we were using UTF8 encoding so some bytes were getting changed on us. |
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Watching this topic...hoping for success |
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Also watching... I can say that the data is TTL level serial at 115200 8N1 as mentioned. I am using a Photon micro controller to replace the aweful Wifi module. Building a proxy and then will use the Particle cloud to manage the tub. |
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Quick update... I have built a simple proxy that intercepts the iOS app and sends to the tub over serial. The goal is to replace the wifi module with something better and more IoT based. I can read the codes sent by the tub. But just like @los93sol, I cannot get the tub to accept any of my commands over serial. And I am just relaying the commands from the iOS app. If any of you could grab the command generated by the wifi module when you change the set point to 101, i could compare with what the app sends and see if the module does anything to the actual payload. |
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@garbled1 I am stuck like @los93sol ... All the commands match, CRCs check out. I am even using the commands coming out of the iOS app and they match what I computed. I monitor what I receive and what I send and the tub never reacts. How are you sending your commands? What kind of hardware are you using? Is there some sort of setup before sending commands? Thanks for the help |
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Would be very interested by the response of @garbled1... |
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I actually got it talking, use an rs422 adapter instead |
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Which RS-422 adapter did you use? I was getting intermittent success with
RS-485 (RS-422 is close to RS-485). I have also a lot of code I have been
writing for all the networking stuff. I will publish this as soon as I get
this working reliably.
…On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 3:15 PM Adam Shortland ***@***.***> wrote:
I actually got it talking, use an rs422 adapter instead
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Whoops, you are correct, I checked my notes and it was an RS-485 adapter that I ended up using |
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On another note, we never accomplished 100% reliability, about 10% of the time messages need to be resent |
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I don’t know if you discovered this or not but messages cannot just be sent
at random. You need to wait for your time slot. Then you can send
something. Usually you wait for a 06 command and you can either send a 07
if you have nothing to send or whatever command you are wishing to send.
…On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 09:23 Adam Shortland ***@***.***> wrote:
On another note, we never accomplished 100% reliability, about 10% of the
time messages need to be resent
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Interesting, that explains quite actually, swapping my keypad back and forth between the ports resulted in it getting a new address and I would see phantom messages on the bus that just appeared to be messages from the main board going off into nowhere, I’m just guessing but I would assume that timing logic is implemented in the official WiFi module since you wouldn’t be able to reliably handle that through an app that can connect/disconnect at will |
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Btw, this is the adapter I am using https://www.amazon.com/USB-module-CP2102-Serial-Converter/dp/B01CNV45SG |
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Did any one get this working? |
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I got some code running on a microcontroler and an rs-485 interface adapter
I bought from sparkfun.com. The project is not complete but I can do a lot
of stuff. Some things I could never figure out. I never tried to run on the
USB adapter.
…On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:44 AM Jeremy ***@***.***> wrote:
Did any one get this working?
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@los93sol Are you able to share how you have a raspberry pi interfacing with the tub? I have a 2017 Sundance 880 that I’m looking to integrate with home assistant but hoping to avoid paying $200-$300 for the WiFi module. |
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Hi, maybe i'm a confused noob but is there a benefit to going through the rs485 port as opposed to the rj45 as this person did? Or does it essentially end up being the same result and either will work? Do all Balboa controllers have rs485 and only some rj45? https://www.olivierhill.ca/archives/72-The-Internet-of-Spas.html |
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I think you are mixing 2 things here:
…-RJ-45 is a connector standard (8 conductors used for ethernet and many
other things)
-rs485 is a communication standard that can be carried over pretty much any
wire and plug. Balboa uses rs485 to send/receive data and they may deliver
that data over any connector: RJ-45, moles, etc. (mine is a 4 pin Molex
connector).
So you have to use rs485, but how you connect is up to the board you are
using
Hope this helps.
On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:37 PM ten300 ***@***.***> wrote:
Hi, maybe i'm a confused noob but is there a benefit to going through the
rs485 port as opposed to the rj45 as this person did? Or does it
essentially end up being the same result and either will work? Do all
Balboa controllers have rs485 and only some rj45?
https://www.olivierhill.ca/archives/72-The-Internet-of-Spas.html
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Thanks Stephane I had a doh moment there, of course you are right. I need more coffee! Having said that the owner of the link I posted has an Arduino sketch that looks usable so I’ll try that route with a nodemcu. My primary goal is to view actual Spa temp (not set temp). Thanks to you and all for this thread and the work that’s gone into reverse engineering , it’s starting to make sense now
… On May 13, 2020, at 4:25 PM, Stephane Bourque ***@***.***> wrote:
I think you are mixing 2 things here:
-RJ-45 is a connector standard (8 conductors used for ethernet and many
other things)
-rs485 is a communication standard that can be carried over pretty much any
wire and plug. Balboa uses rs485 to send/receive data and they may deliver
that data over any connector: RJ-45, moles, etc. (mine is a 4 pin Molex
connector).
So you have to use rs485, but how you connect is up to the board you are
using
Hope this helps.
On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:37 PM ten300 ***@***.***> wrote:
> Hi, maybe i'm a confused noob but is there a benefit to going through the
> rs485 port as opposed to the rj45 as this person did? Or does it
> essentially end up being the same result and either will work? Do all
> Balboa controllers have rs485 and only some rj45?
> https://www.olivierhill.ca/archives/72-The-Internet-of-Spas.html
>
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The pinout is now fully documented in the wiki. |
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@stephb9959 I'm very interested in your code as I'd like to create and publish a esp8266 MQTT bridge to the tub. Is your code available for use? Thanks, |
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@cribskip I have not touched that code in a while. Let me see what I can
find out and in what state this is in. The code was worked better on
particle than the pi. Give me a week or two.
…On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:28 AM cribskip ***@***.***> wrote:
@stephb9959 <https://github.com/stephb9959> I'm very interested in your
code as I'd like to create and publish a esp8266 MQTT bridge to the tub. Is
your code available for use?
Thanks,
Sascha
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I have a Balboa GL2000 (as mentioned above, this board has no wifi). The "main panel" (J70, J71, J72) ports are 8 pins. Is it possible to wire up an RS485 to USB adapter to this? |
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I've got a friend with a Balboa EL1500. At some point I'd like to answer the same question for him. |
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I'll be doing the same thing once I actually get some time, Balboa vs501
board
… ri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:28 AM cribskip ***@***.***> wrote:
> @stephb9959 <https://github.com/stephb9959> I'm very interested in your
> code as I'd like to create and publish a esp8266 MQTT bridge to the tub.
Is
> your code available for use?
>
> Thanks,
> Sascha
>
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So I got my Spa wired up and state is published via MQTT from the RS485 to OpenHAB 👍 Sending toggle command (lights) results in no action. I'm sending these bytes to toggle the lights. Are they correct?
I'm not sending any request_configuration as the node is on the RS485. May be that's the problem? What telegram may I have to send beforehand? Also, my telegrams look a little bit different to yours. My message type is not 0A BF xx but 10 BF xx in most cases: Maybe there is a different configuration in my BP2100G0? 🤔 Thanks to all of you, |
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First of all, you're missing the second Secondly, I've been working on fully documenting the protocol on the wiki (WIP). I believe you can use the channel of your top panel and/or wifi module to send commands, but you have to wait for the appropriate ClearToSend message. |
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@bggardner Wow, kudos, thank you very much for your efforts! I'll be checking this out 👍 |
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So thank you all so much for your work. Today, I've created my esp8266-mqtt-balboa-bridge and it's working very well. Code is published in my repo: https://github.com/cribskip/esp8266_spa |
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Hacking at its best... the fun begins...
1 - this industry is rather lazy. Once they have developed a device and
some software, they stick with it. So I would guess that this is just a new
form factor. It could even be 2 4 pin connectors side by side (I am
assuming this is a 2x4 molex. If RJ45, then you will need a breakout board
or a cut up Ethernet cable).
2 - it’s fairly simple to use a multimeter to figure out which pins are
what. You can safely isolate power and ground usually.
3 - borrowing a cheap scope would reveal the signal pins.
4 - there’s no high voltage present on that connector for sure.
5 - try to find out which accessories can be plugged in that port. Are they
all new ones or some older ones are also supported. This might point to the
wiring being the same or a shim used to convert from old to new.
6 - put on your Sherlock Holmes hat and let us know what you find. Post
some pics of the connector.
All this investigation can be done without harming the board.
On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 06:55 tmjo ***@***.***> wrote:
I have a Balboa GL2000 (as mentioned above, this board has no wifi). The
"main panel" (J70, J71, J72) ports are 8 pins. Is it possible to wire up an
RS485 to USB adapter to this?
Hi @markpw7 <https://github.com/markpw7>; I have the same "issue" as you
do. Did you figure it out? Thanks in advance. #14
<#14>
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Hi Stéphane and thanks for your reply! It's Molex and not RJ45. Got a bit lost measuring since the combinations are so many, but I'll do some more testing and see. Will upload some pictures in separate threat to not spam this one. See #14 for details. |
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Any more progress by anyone on this one? Finally time to tackle it I think!
From: tmjo <notifications@github.com>
Reply-To: ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app <reply@reply.github.com>
Date: Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 2:36 PM
To: ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app <balboa_worldwide_app@noreply.github.com>
Cc: ten300 <matt@disimilar.com>, Comment <comment@noreply.github.com>
Subject: Re: [ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app] Pinout (#2)
Hi Stéphane and thanks for your reply!
It's Molex and not RJ45. Got a bit lost measuring since the combinations are so many, but I'll do some more testing and see. Will upload some pictures in separate threat to not spam this one. See #14<#14> for details.
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Hi @stephb9959 Which control unit are you using? Which connector does it have? Interesting you are seeing TTL and not RS484, so must be using something different to the others. Hopefully hold the key to resolving #14 |
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I was not very clear in my description…
What I have is a RS485 to TTL level converter. I believe I bought the
module from Sparkfun. With that module, you can now get serial data into
any micro controller or a Pi. I have been busy on a couple of large
projects but I will resurrect this one in a month or so.
On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:36 netmindz ***@***.***> wrote:
Also watching... I can say that the data is TTL level serial at 115200 8N1
as mentioned. I am using a Photon micro controller to replace the aweful
Wifi module. Building a proxy and then will use the Particle cloud to
manage the tub.
Hi @stephb9959 <https://github.com/stephb9959>
Which control unit are you using? Which connector does it have?
Interesting you are seeing TTL and not RS484, so must be using something
different to the others. Hopefully hold the key to resolving #14
<#14>
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If anyone finds this thread and has 8pin then check out |
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Hey out there :) Just recevied my hot tub, from Belgium :) I'm trying to connect with a RS485 USB connector on a raspberry pi 3. I can just get garbage, regardless how I connect A and B, event if I try to connect the minus (B) on the ground. Bought it following this documentation : https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/ I think I missing something there, from the electronical side, can someone of you give me some tips how to progress there ? I already used with success RS-232 and RS-485 on other project (energymeter f.i.), but I cant get it to work :( I'm seeing messages passing by on a regular basis, but of course, completely unreadable. Please... SOS.... ... --- ... ... --- ... |
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What model of controller do you have @ScanxTaz ? Please confirm which pins you are using for the RS485 |
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What's your model of controller and UI?
Did you check for continuity when connected to the pool so those wires are
connected properly?
Did you try different baud rates?
Do you have a logic analyser at hand or oscilloscope?
Good luck,
Sascha
ScanxTaz ***@***.***> schrieb am Mi., 25. Okt. 2023, 17:46:
… Hey out there :)
Just recevied my hot tub, from Belgium :) I'm trying to connect with a
RS485 USB connector
<https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B07B416CPK?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details>
on a raspberry pi 3.
I can just get garbage, regardless how I connect A and B, event if I try
to connect the minus (B) on the ground. Bought it following this
documentation : https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/
I think I missing something there, from the electronical side, can someone
of you give me some tips how to progress there ? I already used with
success RS-232 and RS-485 on other project (energymeter f.i.), but I cant
get it to work :(
Please... SOS.... ... --- ... ... --- ...
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Hey, thanks for your answer @netmindz & @cribskip . The RS 485 first, I checked with a multimeter before plugging in. I've +- 15V on 2 wires, and then, only a few volts with the two others. I figured it out following this documentation : https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/wiki The wires appear exactly the same as explained in : https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/wiki#physical-layer I used the 15v to get a stable 5v for my raspberry (I initially tought under-voltage was a reason of issue, which is not). The controller says BP21, with this written on the box : https://ibb.co/s6SWVGV I've bought this RS485 interface to connect on my Raspberry pi 3 : https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B07B416CPK?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details My raspberry recognizes the USB key, and I can connect, with this command, to the hot tub :
Meanwhile, I only see garbage, but at regular time, like if some messages where passing by, I'd say 4 to 6 updates per second, with some pauses in between of 1 or 2 seconds every 5 seconds. Here's what I see :
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Eh, you should view the data not in ASCII but Hex. As the data is fairly
repeative, I think you are already good to go.
ScanxTaz ***@***.***> schrieb am Do., 26. Okt. 2023, 11:01:
… Hey, thanks for your answer @netmindz <https://github.com/netmindz> &
@cribskip <https://github.com/cribskip> .
The RS 485 first, I checked with a multimeter before plugging in. I've +-
15V on 2 wires, and then, only a few volts with the two others. I figured
it you following this documentation :
https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/wiki
The wires appear exactly the same as explained in :
https://github.com/ccutrer/balboa_worldwide_app/wiki#physical-layer
I used the 15v to get a stable 5v for my raspberry (I initially tought
under-voltage was a reason of issue, which is not).
I'm arriving at this level : https://ibb.co/6yhRvXP
The controller says BP21, with this written on the box :
https://ibb.co/s6SWVGV
I've bought this RS485 interface to connect on my Raspberry pi 3 :
https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B07B416CPK?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My raspberry recognizes the USB key, and I can connect, with this command,
to the hot tub :
screen /dev/ttyUSB0 115200,cs8,parenb,-parodd
Meanwhile, I only see garbage, but at regular time, like if some messages
where passing by, I'd say 4 to 6 updates per second, with some pauses in
between of 1 or 2 seconds every 5 seconds. Here's what I see :
~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~���~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
��(>>x9~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
��(>>x9~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
��(>>x9~~�\~~�>~>~�>~~�\~~�>~~���~~�\~~�>~\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
��(>>x9~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
��(>>x9~~�\~~�>~~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~�\~~�>~~
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Can I then just ask a dumb question : How can I read (human reading) what's passing by the USB then ? |
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That's indeed working, I want to give it a tutorial, step by step, to make it to work, but I can't manage to find a correct command to verify the link with the spa works well. On my side, the registration of the service was failing, I don't know why, most certainly access right on the gem that are not well set... Thanks for your help, it works now |
I'm actually looking to do similar with my tub and trying to figure out the pinout. Based on your findings I suspect the wifi module is nothing more than a dumb RS232 to Wifi module and that the protocol from the main to the topside is the same as what you're seeing from the Wifi module. I'm trying to find some documentation on the RJ45 port that Balboa uses on their VS series units. Does anyone have any info on it or can anyone confirm the wifi module isn't anything special?
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