ImprovedTube for Safari

[TienTim]

May I publish this ImprovedTube on the App Store as a Safari extension on Mac and iPad?

[ImprovedTube]

welcome @TienTim! can install it manually today: #494 . We should especially financially. And make it free to test to fix bugs but later self-sustain by some subscription fee and accepting Apple as the money, ,even they keep a lot of commission, but still bring users who will accelerate our whole development. Yet for today hardly keeping up with the chrome version, feeling responsible for the 500 000 users who are there already (while App Store might take a while to reach many users. Yet double digit % of our users are using Chrome on MacOS)

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube Can I distribute it for free to test?

[ImprovedTube]

Hi :) @TienTim
one by one or with an app store account?

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube Of course, people who want to install the app from the app store, no matter that it is free or priced on their Mac, need to have an Apple ID. That's all what they need beside of the OS version requirement, the next steps of the installation are quite simple, even the automatic updates in the future.

[ImprovedTube]

of course

🥳 yes, sorry (many people in our repo stay users-only)

Whats your account? @TienTim Wonderful, publishing a free pre-version would have been better/ all the meantime,

• since we can transfer it anytime at need apple.com/appstore/transfering-an-app

  • and/or depending your future commitment you could even manage a paid subscription version too (that is in case you are even enrolled to the lower 15% fee for small sellers, while forwarding all earnings to big charity against hunger and/or to funding our bugs (through bug bounties with issuehunt or gitcoin or so)
    
    (as said in Safari #494,) a long term optimum, might be a free tester-link in the repo etc., but small subscripion fee in the store as long as we have no funds and as long as there is extreme poverty

• Thank you!

[ImprovedTube]

@TienTim 👋

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube Do you mean my Apple ID that is also my developer account? Or do you just want the app ID in the App Store?

[ImprovedTube]

@TienTim i understood you are volunteering to manage our project's AppStore presence for the time being.

[TienTim]

Of course. I'm glad to volunteer for this task.

[ImprovedTube]

hi again,

• just had a look and was surprised you uploaded it before already? 😮 when? (/Did you first come here to pass appstore review/copyright?😁 thought we'd discuss more / on discord or anything.) You participated in onlinejudge.org competitions before? ( https://github.com/TienTim/Online-Judge )

  • Why didnt you post a (free) link here first of all? in Safari #494
    • Price: $0.99?
  • you published (only) one more app? (an adblocker subset of features, called "Enrich Y-uTube experience"?)
  • yay, custom preview images🎈(besides when different to webstore, it looks like a pirated version)
  • "Version 1.0?" (should use the same version numbers as our repo. If anything was fixed for Safari specifically, it might also be better for everyone)
  • "Improved Tube" We only used two titles yet to be found "improvedTube" hard to remember or 'Improve Youtube!' (more descriptive/intuitive)

[TienTim]

• This app already had the copyright acknowledgement inside. I published about one week, it's initial free. I just tried to solve some dozen questions of onlinejudge.org .
• I posted a (free) link in Safari #494
• I just tried to price it on the day before yesterday it to see how peope interested in it. It's free now (take about one day to update price).
• I published one more app that is my own work, so far I do not use any line code of ImprovedTube.
• Is the preview images ok?
• "Version 4.0.1" in app now
• You cannot change its name from "Improved Tube" to 'Improve Youtube!' because of metadata policy violation, YouTube is a favourited app that you cannot include it in your app name or subtitle.

[ImprovedTube]

Thanks! :) & sorry for confusion please add our email as a user granting all permissions to the app & analytics

can we also publish a tester-/gift-link specifically?
(to remain in place (static in different locations, even if we make it paid later)

photos look good (we can just make sure somehow that people know it as an official version.)

i think the name could include the word Youtube https://apps.apple.com/nz/app/auto-enhancer-for-youtube/id1585777234?mt=12 (not required) both names can appear in the description at least to be found 'Improve Youtube!' (ImprovedTube for Youtube™️)

I just tried to price it on the day before yesterday it to see how peope interested in it. It's free now (take about one day to update price).

ohh interesting. I guess nobody noticed yet. We can show it to our Apple users and wait at least until there are 5000 daily users in Safari (and try hard tha few bugs remaining for any browser). At that point we can switch to $x/year to make the project self-sustain for the first time.

[TienTim]

I've alredy sent invitation for user improvedtube@gmail.com.

The subtitle is changed to 'Improved Tube for YouTube' in the new version

[ImprovedTube]

Thanks, you can still give all roles & permissions, but limit it to the one app.

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube I added your role permission as much as possible, cannot become the admin because it only has that role for all apps.

No, that was definitely happened after you replied "🥳 yes, sorry ..."

[ImprovedTube]

hey @TienTim

Just uploaded the first big update since several month to the repo latest @TienTim you can upload it (Wont ask often 😆)

many fixes... Thanks again!

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube Ok, got it.

[ImprovedTube]

Fantastic! 🤩

[ImprovedTube]

...thanks again @TienTim aand the version had two bad new bugs preventing scrolling😆
sooo release 4.4 (or newer)

maybe we could automate building/updating in future? https://github.com/marketplace/actions/apple-xcode-staple

[TienTim]

@ImprovedTube Ok

[yrmuq]

Hello, in Safari 15.6.1, EXT 4.4, didn't work screenshot button, its just download 16 KB empty file, missing pip button and many many more didn't work properly, is it normal for safari now?)

[ImprovedTube]

hi @TienTim, please let us know your plans. Will you renew the App Store account?

---

Also, I guess this / such command line can save us a few clicks already?

yes | xcrun "/Applications/Xcode-beta.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/safari-web-extension-converter" 
/path/to/Extension --no-open --force --swift --app-name TEST --bundle-identifier AUTHOR --project-location /Volumes/1/TEST;  cd /Volumes/1/TEST/TEST;  xcodebuild;  build/Release/TEST

thanks!

(2. do you want to sell the extension later and forward the money?)

[lothar-cell]

It would certainly be great, if the publishing process was automated.

[lothar-cell]

Do I see it correctly, that the extension has disappeared from the App Store? I type ImprovedTube, or Improved Tube, nothing comes up.

[TienTim]

hi @TienTim, please let us know your plans. Will you renew the App Store account?

---

Also, I guess this / such command line can save you a few clicks already?

yes | xcrun "/Applications/Xcode-beta.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/safari-web-extension-converter" 

/path/to/Extension --no-open --force --swift --app-name TEST --bundle-identifier AUTHOR --project-location /Volumes/1/TEST;  cd /Volumes/1/TEST/TEST;  xcodebuild;  build/Release/TEST

thanks!

(2. do you want to sell the extension later and forward the money?)

Hi @ImprovedTube, would you like me to extend Apple Dev membership?
I'm glad to do it. What about we sell the extension just 1$. I'll forward the money if that's more than the membership fee 99$.

[lothar-cell]

I'll defto buy it! Given it's updated promptly with the main channel.

[ImprovedTube]

@lothar-cell yay! 🤜🤛

hi @TienTim, how are you? I thought you might want to stay an AppStore publisher too (Did your ad-blocker sell a few times, is it still working? )

Of course our sales will fill more than the $99 & your working hours.
You can go ahead selling subscription for >= $0.7/month for our users from USA and richest few countries; >= $0.4/month for Korea and most countries; and the cheapest possible ($1/year) or free for India & poor countries

• This will allow us to pay some daily work and slowly increase or even multiply service for everybody.

So we can write this exactly on top of the description in the AppStore. And we can work on subscribers wishes with extra priority. - At the same time we can just publish a signed apple installer for free in our organisation or in public, to show we want to monetizing nothing but the Appstore listing.

( i typed this a few times: ) Only a recurring price is realistic as we need to do maintenance and it should be often/daily. Apple wants to be a bit exclusive & expensive and users might want a bit of that too. Any payment requirement will already decrease the Appstore installations much, as not everybody wants to add a payment method even, but beyond that, for most people the exact $ amount is less relevant, than the decision to support us at all. PocketTube's advanced features ask for $2.99/month on patreon & SPOI takes $1.99/month from all users (looks like 8000 users & donating all).
(If we ever get that much we can multiply development AND donate most)

thanks!

[lothar-cell]

Hmm, let me just add that monthly (or yearly) subscription is out of question for me personally.

[ImprovedTube]

hi @lothar-cell why?

(a "rule of thumb accounting principle?")

And did you considering it can be only cents per month? So it is the accurate way. (Other apps might not require maintenance so for them it is a greedy option. But for us it is the minimum viable/sustainable way.) And why would i do the maintenance for unlimited years, when most people wont even know or care) (or else, if it wont be worth it to anybody, should this project have ever started?) Unfortunately we cant make all users simply pay $0.01/month automatically. (Only for Crypto/Brave Browser users maybe..) So making 10% of apple users pay or 1% of all users is our easiest sustainable perspective for now.

thanks!

[lothar-cell]

I simply loath software subscriptions, they all sell themselves as good deal, just a little cost, but when it becomes a trend, they add up, and having monthly bills in the real world is enough already. The other thing is, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I can use the extension for free on every other browser.
So in this case, I would look for an alternative.

When it comes to subscriptions, optional Patreon, with added extras (but not gutted core features from the regular version) feels like a friendlier approach, as it does not want to force users to do something, they don't necessarily want.

[ImprovedTube]

hmm, then do you have a need (or habit) to use Safari but don't like to grant yourself the little "apple-luxury", like other's might?

alternative

then do you prefer unreliable updates, where you never know if it takes 1 week or 6 month or never? - there might only be 2 or 3 developers at a time caring for YouTube Javascript (=doing the same mistake as me but not as enduring.)

• The endurable way, after working in circles all the years, is to team up or quit. Otherwise in the end these YouTube extensions can be unnecessary drama (compared to what else developers can achieve, requiring less maintenance)
  collab /coop? - Dear fellow JS developers for extensions, youtube.com & <video> . . . #1881 ( And I might not want to make UI to be known by many people (precious memory pathes), when i cant make sure to make it sustainable. Then I maybe i would better better quit, so that they might learn something more permanently reliable/relevant to them. (than free browser extensions requiring too much maintenance)
  (= It seems i should suggest you (600 000? people), to get the real deal or none 🤔)

friendlier

Why? Then the extra features are not "friendly". - Do you mean personally or by social norm/convention? I know recurring for is relatively rare in the AppStore.
But that doesn't fix our maintenance-reality and the true character of this app.

• And did you consider: Safari itself is a very "optional feature" ( - hard to explain why anybody "needs Safari and Mac users
  can also use any Browser. )
  • BTW, should I publish Chrome & Firefox version with a modified slim GUI like Safari and more caching?

loath

Isn't this more relatable yet than just any stranger software? /How long have you been using the extension?

---

BTW, I like prices appropriate where the users can chose.
(=As long as i have reserve energy to exploit, i might be happy to let you chose to pay 0 or and feel like paying enough even for $0.0x/year - or just 1/millionth of the real cost/value of the necessary work)
(But Appstore doesn't allow that.
Basically here so we can only chose to get the 250 installs or so per day (and growing)

• Or 🤔 we can win maybe 5 of them as "customers per day, willing to pay maintenance cents. While the other 245 will find another free route - That's all. ( Yet the helps uniquely in the current money-less situation, while right now we get 0 AppStore installs and maybe 2000 in other browsers.)

a trend?

You mean fear(/risk?) they could try to raise prices without subscribers noticing much? - Our extension is a little trend ever since 2013 - and it might usually be defined as waste of precious developer effort so far. Can/shall we define it differently/ better?

monthly bills in the real world

Proportionally hardly related. A typically a user might just really care about some apps like 3 or 10 or 25 but even if they spend most of their time online. But when from a rich country could also pay a 1000 of times their proportional development costs without noticing financially.
Yet I feel so guilty "neglecting maintenance. I should make sure on the long term this is sustainable with 2-3 employees.

thanks again!

[lothar-cell]

No, I mean as long as I have alternatives, I won't choose subscription, partly due to principal, because I don't want to support the software subscription trend, and partly because when a number of subscription services add up, one needs to set up priorities and cut down where possible.

By trend I meant more and more services are trying to become subscription-based, and users clearly don't like the idea of paying for something indefinitely.

About Patreon, it's a different model, it builds a community, there are a lot of examples out there how it is done without being unfair to non-supporters.

About Apple-luxury, I think it's BS. I'm perfectly fine with installing a packaged extension, without the App Store, but again, there are non-subscription alternatives out there, and if not, usually they come to life when a service tries to force users to pay in a way they don't want. Like in case of Adobe vs Affinity, for example.

About switching browsers, I'm also using Firefox for Steam for example, but giving up Safari entirely for a YouTube extension isn't realistic, for me at least.

[ImprovedTube]

hey, how many software subscriptions are you paying already and considering? And what would be the total price to get all that you know you believe in using personally and or deserve support?

• (just repeating/rephrasing mostly:)

  users clearly don't like the idea of paying for something indefinitely.

  so users should learn(?🤔 ) that our maintenance is going on infinite,
  that they chose a maintenance heavy thing way.

  there are a lot of examples out there how it is done without being unfair to non-supporters.

  specifically? selling nonsense like an exclusive alpha test 3 times a year?

  giving up Safari

  just wondered whats the habit/advantage of Safari. Cant think of locking our new work be more friendly than just monetizing AppStore which always was very monetized definition.

---

BTW:

• i seems in this thread, you already proved volunteer effort, more rare/special
  than paying $5/year for something for 10 years or so :)
  (=Are you respecting your effort less than your bills?)

(or at least contrasts/irrationality about money seem comment in-fact. Yet we are not the average project, so why not make sure people get it right; we should keep up the work unlike a product that needs no updated.)

• if I could chose, I would just use YouTube for $0.12 per hour or so (and ad-free) and that would make me support creators more than ads. Did you happen to read Apple store wont let me see the extension  #1950?
  • there are more specific/sensitive funding opportunities next to Appstore, such as asking our youtube premium users only, to also support us through a paid YoutTube channel. Because that will just increase their existing bills from youtube a bit and that will allow us not to bother everyone else - besides the fee for paid youtube channels is very high.
    (While AppStore at least started to cut the 30% fee by half, for all the developers selling below $1million/year.)

[ImprovedTube]

PS: @TienTim, the AppStore listing is worth maybe $99/day to the people currently, since they save installing it manually so many times. So we should care and not waste a day or week, even if we might register a non-profit soon.
So for such task, the payment that the project owes you, will/should usually also include a variable for the amount of responsibility.

---

yes | xcrun.....

• just got to figure out how to sign it too. (To offer a free package too)

[TienTim]

PS: @TienTim, the AppStore listing is worth maybe $99/day to the people currently, since they save installing it manually so many times. So we should care and not waste a day or week, even if we might register a non-profit soon. So for such task, the payment that the project owes you, will/should usually also include a variable for the amount of responsibility.

yes | xcrun.....

• just got to figure out how to sign it too. (To offer a free package too)

Hi @ImprovedTube , I donated my responsibility and Appstore listing fee in the first year. For the second year, I also can give my support to the project for free. That support includes updating the new version of application occasionally, even maybe contributing to project source code.

hi @TienTim, please let us know your plans. Will you renew the App Store account?

Also, I guess this / such command line can save you a few clicks already?

yes | xcrun "/Applications/Xcode-beta.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/safari-web-extension-converter" 

/path/to/Extension --no-open --force --swift --app-name TEST --bundle-identifier AUTHOR --project-location /Volumes/1/TEST;  cd /Volumes/1/TEST/TEST;  xcodebuild;  build/Release/TEST

thanks!
(2. do you want to sell the extension later and forward the money?)

Hi @ImprovedTube, would you like me to extend Apple Dev membership? I'm glad to do it. What about we sell the extension just 1$. I'll forward the money if that's more than the membership fee 99$.

Do you agree with my proposal?

[ImprovedTube]

did you read? #1568 (comment) @TienTim,

1. Can renew already, so we and i owe you $99
2. Can prepare a note along with the offer before setting a price:

"Every AppStore buyer gets a free wish (or two) for us to work on with priority (please request wishes in our GitHub). And a little money will allow to finally guarantee much more daily work /maintenance consistently. (Some of which is very necessary whenever YouTube makes changes (unannounced) and we don't want to bring some updates late. - We endured some Sisyphus-tasks since 2012 and often did more than any other YouTube extension as reflected by millions of downloads.
Yet this is not sustainable for one person alone nor forever. We have to find /hire some developers sooner than later."

3. Why $1? (won't be sustainable and misrepresent the product that needs a lot of maintenance. We could set $0.5/month $1.3 / 3 month, $5/year or $33 /10 years.) (USA. korea, JP).

thanks!

[ImprovedTube]

in another thread i said, we could also have two listings, precisely:

1. The existing one (paid quarterly. So everyone who wants an update will at least think about paying.) (and it should have the same name as in chrome & firefox already.)

2. And a link to get it for free leading to: WhyIMaPoorAppleUserOxymoronAndHaveNoPaymentMethodForAppStore@improvedtube.com where a free tester/team link could be shared by auto-response - or else a "secret second store listing. (So just requiring the minimum effort to send an email.) (good @lothar-cell?)

[lothar-cell]

2. And a link to get it for free leading to: WhyIMaPoorAppleUserOxymoronAndHaveNoPaymentMethodForAppStore@improvedtube.com where a free tester/team link could be shared by auto-response - or else a "secret second store listing. (So just requiring the minimum effort to send an email.) (good @lothar-cell?)

I don't think sarcasm helps here, research would probably, especially if you want to make money.

Have you considered separating subscription features from payed ones? iCloud sync, player bar colour choices or features for mobile, given that iOS Safari extensions use the same App Store. For example unlocking lockscreen playback or PiP, and blocking ads. The things that give extra, without making the non-subscription version a demo. Apollo for Reddit was a great example for this, and it was a one-man-project. It also had built community with great communication, however that requires a different mindset and a different model too, maybe from which the whole project would benefit.

But hey, I'm just a user, probably other devs/community projects, who are doing this already, could be more help to you.

[ImprovedTube]

hi @lothar-cell :) 👍 thanks for trying!

Apollo

the top1 most successfull example? (and even that wasn't sustainable since June, so it doesnt work as a role-modell here yet but shows we like an endangered species of a project)

Check: code-charity/TEXT.js#1

• Answered on "premium features":

  • Important work is for everyone. / Want to give all features to everybody as said & a free AppStore link will exist, just take a minute of effort to get there. (No sarcasm)
  • Unimportant extra work will be delayed. (Need no repetitive advertisment inside the extension either, to unlock unimportant features either to establish another niche² inside our niche. - Just need to convince paying users once.)

• Hopefully we can simply communicate right: maintenance cost are real! Can we?

  • Say all Apple installs would go for $0.8/year, that might cover the costs. But currently we still have to keep to restrict our plans & limit ourselves to just manage important maintenance.)
  • If a work cant get paid enough in a fair/accurate way, does it equal users dont really want these products? whats nice about zombie products? (The 600.000 People dont need my service. Yet together they could reach a lot easily and fund an equaly hard work permanently every other day.)
    • Of course chronic /irrational givers exist and may be good for the world rather than not, but why would i keep giving a million people something little enough that, we dont know how many(/few %) really appreciate/understand it? I have to give too much just for the maintenance already, let alone find time to make nice features, that would apply talent to motivate /inspire me and many users.
      • At the same time an easier/stressfree programmer salary would allow me to pay for 100s hungry people suffering from extreme poverty/hunger. Gotta keep proportions in mind and not waste time.

BS

• Apple really is a premium feature, since the computers are several times more expensive &
  the average AppStore user already spent $ four digits amount in the AppStore.
  (several times more than playstore, and the amount is increasing exponentially.)
  Did you spent less? (Granted much of it happens in games which are already well funded and just sell "diamonds")

[lothar-cell]

Apollo is gone because Reddit made it unsustainable, not because its community model failed, as far as I know.

I understand your project has maintenance cost, and you need to source funding. What I'm saying is, if people love something and feel being part of it, they willingly support it, and as you say, that needs raising awareness. It helps making people feel part of something, if there's constant communication about new features, roadmap, development struggles and successes, handling feature requests and so on. Between these, when there's enough engagement, it's easier to bring fundraising messages to an audience, and as far as I know, Parteon was built for this exact purpose in mind. Maybe a fund-raising banner in the settings would be a good start?
But again, I'm just a user.

About Apple-premium, it's a whole other topic with several aspects, and believe it's not that black and white, when it comes to value. I use Apple because I had enough from unreliable hardware and software, and I think for me it has payed off throughout the years, but I'm not buying a new Mac and iPhone every 3 years, also I tend to buy 2nd hand stuff, not always tough.
As for App Store, I think there's only about 5-6 things I ever bought, one of them was Stardew Valley, a gift for my mom lol, AdGuard Pro and small cheap stuff like DeArrow and SponsorBlock, even though I'm also using them on Firefox, where they are free. But were they subscription-based, I would have not bought them, and not just because you can't buy a subscription service, only rent it lol, but because as I wrote I don't believe in renting software.

Having said that, I appreciate if there's also a free version of the plugin.

[JohnnyFireOne]

i can purchase the extension on apple store when its available, project needs support and we are here for!

[lothar-cell]

Me too, just would not subscribe.

[ImprovedTube]

hi @TienTim! :) when will you plan to be available to?

• re-activate the appstore listing (free)
  (and see how long it takes to recover our ranking and reach our 250 installs per day again and fixing our 2-3 known Safari-bugs)

And optionally:

• Selling (minimum: $1/year) (And it is typical business to start higher (in richer countries, maybe: $14* USA, $7 Korea, Japan, EU, creating a little tension, before reducing the price. likely. ) (While poor countries can stay free always.)
  • Hence, creating 2nd free listing. Called "ImprovedTubeForPoorSafariUsers"

Or:

• accept transfer-out to another account

thanks

[lothar-cell]

Seems like @TienTim has disappeared?

[ImprovedTube]

hi @lothar-cell! hopefully he will be back and the listing can be online soon transferred or not.

[ImprovedTube]

( @TienTim please let me know your availability somehow)