| S No | Agenda | Summary |
|---|---|---|
| 103.1 | Edit to Final Proposals Update EIP-152:Fix reference test ethereum/EIPs#8390 | Waiting on author's approval. No objection by EIP editors |
| 103.2 | Fix Typo: Update EIP-2982: Fix typos ethereum/EIPs#8394 | Merged |
| 103.3 | Fix Typo Update EIP-627: fix typo ethereum/EIPs#7956 | @SamWilsn and @lightclient thinks it is changing more than typos, and should be closed this without merging. Ref |
| 103.4 | Potential spam | All Closed |
| 103.5 | Community proposals added to Issues (https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/increasing-contract-size-limit-with-increasing-gas-cost-beyond-24-5kb/19708/5) | Editors and community may respond on the magicians thread. |
| 103.6 | Call for Input | All open, decisions will be added to respective Issues. |
| 103.7 | 2. Other discussions and updates from past meetings | Editors discussed few suggestions.(a)@lightclient thinks the best place to discuss is FEM thread and open to suggestions to allow creating thread on research topic, before the EIP is proposed. (b) Different metrics like avg. time of a Open PR can be helpful. EIPsInsight may track them.(c) Keep a track of Open Issues/PR per meeting.Another suggestion came in as a proposal to send a bot response to let the user know that the proposal maybe reviewed within this period. |
| 103.8 | PR for review by RIP Editors - ethereum/RIPs#17 | No RIP Editor joined the call |
Pooja Ranjan 00:00: Welcome to EIPIP meeting 103. This is issue number #334 on Eth Cat Herders EIPIP GitHub repository. On agenda we have some open issues and pull requests for review by the editor and then some Community proposal added to issue section call for input. And other discussions from past meetings or any updates from earlier meetings. We'll take a quick look at EIPs insight and if there are any open review action items from earlier meetings. So starting with the first item we have a handful of poll requests added here. So the first one is an edit to the final proposal. Generally we bring them to this meetings. The PR number is 8390 on EIP GitHub repository. I wonder what editors think about it.
Sam 0.54: Yeah I think this is good to go as long as we get a an author approval on it.
Pooja Ranjan 1:03: So just waiting on author's approval and there is no objection by any editor. Cool. So there are handful of other edits to proposals which are already in final status and these seems to be all typo. We can perhaps start with the pr number #8394.
Sam 1:34: Yeah I can probably take care of these offline these seem fine just typos. Yeah I'll merge these offline as long as they're sane.
Lightclient 1:46: Yeah kind of been merging some of these that I've seen pop up to final EIPs like things that are clearly just typos. Should probably accept I don't see a problem with it.
Pooja Ranjan 2:02: Sounds good. So there is this next update stagnant EIP pull request. So with this particular PR. This is PR number 8418. I'm referring to this particular PR. My concern are number one this is a proposal to update a proposal which is already in stagnant status. So we don't know whether it's going to be active ever or not and the second one is that the update suggested is very small. So should we accept this kind of PR or simply close them?
Sam 2:43: Yeah I think this is fine I mean they're both clearly errors. So I'm fine merging this.
Pooja Ranjan 2:54: So the issue here is like when a proposal is moved to stagnant they are moved because their Author is not responding or making any changes but if we merge any change it will not be stagnant anymore.
Sam 3:07: Yeah it will stay stagnant unless we explicitly change it.
Pooja Ranjan 3:10: The status. All right.
Sam 3:12: Yeah so I think it's fine you okay if I merge this one. Matt? It's replacing an R is with just R and then there were two B’s. Yeah. Cool.
Lightclient 3:32: I've also I mean yeah I'm generally happy to merge things that are like removing words that make it correct in a Sentence.
Pooja Ranjan 3:47: Very well after that we have a bunch of potential spams. I mean they appeared like spams to me someone may please take a look. And if they are we can perhaps close them.
Sam 4:02: Yeah I can close those offline.
Pooja Ranjan 4:06: Awesome. So the next one is community proposal added to issues actually this was not added to issue this was added on Eth Cat Herders Discord. So this individual is willing to work on a proposal and looking for some feedback. I think Matt has already added some feedback to the proposal and this is just one sample example. Like we have recently received quite a few requests in that direction like where can people collaborate to come up with a better proposal or start discussing. I know Fellowship of ethereum magician is one of those place but that is generally when a proposal is already there and we start discussing. I wonder any editors has any thought suggestion for this particular proposal or the issue in general.
Sam 5:06: I don't really have any good suggestions here unfortunately.
Pooja Ranjan 5:18: Of course we can.
Lightclient 5:19: Are you looking for something better than what eth magician is providing?
Pooja Ranjan 5:26: Okay and I think Eth Magician is a good place for start discussion on anything we want to see as a proposal but there is some gap before proposal before it turns into an EIP. And after it is started from eth research paper. So the gap in between eth research to Fellowship of ethereum magician is something that people are looking for.
Lightclient 5:55: Okay so there's a research idea that's proposed and then there's not a place to discuss the research idea further before it becomes a actual spec Proposal.
Pooja Ranjan 6:08: Yeah that's a better way to put it. Yeah.
Lightclient 6:11: Okay. Is there an example that was given or do you just saying in general.
Pooja Ranjan 6:24: Yeah there is an example that I have received is actually with respect to a proposal which is already existing that is for Eth issuance. So the concern here that was shared is like okay we know that there is a proposal for Eth issuance and we would want to further discuss it but we don't know what to do how we can invite more Community to come and share their idea especially participants who are actively involved for example the staking pool and these people who are little less attracted to eth Research Forum or Fellowship of Ethereum Magician Forum. Can we have an intermediate placeholder for these guys to come forward and talk about the proposal?
Sam 7:09: Well would this be different than just a forum or like?
Lightclient 7:14: This type of thing makes sort of makes sense to me as a eth magician's thread. Like a discussion about the issuance of ethereum going forward. Like Vitalik posted this post the role of Centric roadmap for ethereum and that was you know not a specific proposal was more of an idea about how ethereum should be moving forward. So it kind of makes sense that in this case like a generic conversation eth magicians feels like the right place to do it. If it was something more technical like let's say something like epbs and there was a proposal about an epbs mechanism on each research and then there's a bit of a question like where do you continue discussing and improving that spec before it becomes like an actual EIP. And that I don't really have a great answer for. I think the answer is that it sort of happens in an emergent way where the authors of the proposal again talking with collaborators and those collaborators start discussing things on telegram channels on Discord channels. And on the eth R&D Discord we try to have a lot of channels where all of the general topics that people could imagine are sort of represented. And if there are topics that aren't represented then we could probably add another Channel. And that feels like the right place generally to bridge that gap between we have a research idea we need to iterate on it to get it into an EIP spec idea. I know that that's probably not the best in terms of looking back in history and understanding how that pipeline happened. You know going from Eth research to EIP like we sort of Miss the archivability of that data that goes into Discord. I just don't know if we can force a better proposal than the instant messaging platforms that we're using.
Sam 9:15: We could make a matrix server or something and then link to that from.
Lightclient 9:20: Yeah but like that's that's I don't know I mean I generally like wish that we could switch to that but it feels that feels hard.
Pooja Ranjan 9:34: So there are a few proposals around solution to this this particular problem by the same group that they have shared the this concern. They suggested that it would be a good idea to have a simplified summary we do peep which is kind of extensive. Like we get an overview but sometimes it is more technical as well. So it is a good idea to have a write up of like simplified summary of of that particular problem and then share it with the related party maybe perhaps host a live call and everything else to encourage them to ask more questions. And share their feedback in terms of like if they are supporting the proposal there is a reason why they are doing that and share that reason and if they don't want that proposal let people know about that as well. Because when these proposals become EIP like an Eth Research Post turn into an EIP and then it is being discussed on ACD call. And then people start thinking about it like. Okay we as a particular group do not like this proposal it is too late and it's kind of wastage of time so we should try to pre-stage this conversation before getting into EIP.
Lightclient 10:55: I guess it's a bit of a question like how much is the responsibility on us to go out into the community and pull them in versus the community and a caring about the direction of the protocol. And I don't know I mean it's a balance between those two things but I generally lean on the side that the discussions are happening in an open way. And they're based on the Merit of the proposals. And so if there are interested parties who have perspectives. Then there are the platforms for them to share those perspectives and engage in the debate. Sometimes it's useful for us to go out and have calls and bring people in who maybe are have opinions but aren't going through the hassle of engaging directly where the conversation is happening but I think that's like a little bit separate of is there an open place to have the discussion and the debate. Like for issuance it feels like we could have a threat on Eth magicians where people can discuss.
Pooja Ranjan 12:01: In my mind also eth Fellowship of ethereum magician is a very good place to keep on all ongoing discussion but for rest of the concerns perhaps cat herders can do some coordination and maybe try to bring all interested parties here for any call or maybe a placeholder. I think the ask here with the EIP editors would be when we organize these kind of calls it would be really helpful if someone from the editor team may show up and add their feedback. Like do their think if this proposal is or if this thought is good enough to be a proposal or if it is already a proposal what else needs to be done over there. So maybe an active contribution from EIP editing but we would definitely try not to increase the burden of editors at all.
Lightclient 12:55: Yeah makes sense I feel like I end up on a lot of these things from anyway. So happy to continue being a part of them however.
Pooja Ranjan 13:09: Well thank you that's comforting. I hope we continue talking to this group and maybe in the upcoming meeting we have something more concrete to share and try to collect feedback from the Group.
Sam 13:24: kind of on a related subject I've noticed that a lot of proposals or families of proposals have these like telegram chats or whatever that keep it off of Fellowship of ethereum magicians like 3074 has one 4337 has a bunch of them. Should we be doing more to pull these discussions onto Fellowship of ethereum magicians or should we just let them be their own separate thing?
Lightclient 13:57: Yeah this is a really hard question debate I guess I just try to imagine. So I guess for one I do feel like a lot of the opinions bubble back into eth magicians. I don't know if you agree with that but it feels like a a lot of the high level opinions do eventually make it back maybe not in real time maybe not with as much color and Clarity. But they're represented in the thread. And you're just going to struggle to provide the same experience that people have with just like instant messaging platforms as telegram on Eth magicians. And so they're just like different ways for people to communicate about the proposals and standards. So I mean it's the same with the R&D Discord like so much of these proposals that are on Eth magicians get discussed in the eth R&D Discord. And we don't and for those like we don't necessarily always get that information back into the Eth magician thread and maybe we should try and do a better job at that but it's just like how can we force people to put that information back into a platform that doesn't have as good UX as in as responsive requires a lot more effort than like quick one-off messages. And you know looking back at the 3074 thread something that's you know been around for years has changed quite a lot over time it's pretty difficult to even read all those messages and follow exactly what's happened. So is that what we like one thing expect for all the proposals. I don't know it's sort of a hard problem. Sam 15:32: Yeah I know. I agree 100%. I just wanted to to bring it up here and yeah I mean I'm okay keeping the status quo.
Pooja Ranjan 15:40: Yeah I think this was also one of the concerns that many group of proposals are having their separate set of information broadcasting systems, maybe telegram, maybe creating a website. So if we can provide a placeholder for general public to come and find the respective discussion forum. Even if it is a telegram group or website so they can go and add their thoughts perhaps we will do some more brainstorming in that direction and we'll try to come up with certain ideas. Yes Victor please go ahead.
Victor 16:16: I think I agree many with the what Matt says that like and then I also think that the status quo seems to be so far the best. One thing we can encourage people to provide is actually whatever motivations rationals that has an effect in the proposal should be included in the proposal body itself. And for example like you people can have a long discussion in whatever Discord Channel they decide or they use different ways. But when it comes to okay these are the reasons we make the decision. It should appear on the proposal itself and as long as people have summarise their discussion and make put the most important points reasonings onto the proposal itself. It seems to be okay with the status quo. They use FEM or whatever other approach. My point is just to make it more explicit that whatever you discuss other way in other places. If they make an effect in your proposal make sure that it's reflected on the proposal.
Sam 17:37: Yeah I think that's really good advice we shouldn't be relying on Fellowship of ethereum Magicians to track everything. If it's important it should be in the document. I agree with that.
Victor 17:50: Right I guess the end yeah and and a counter example is that someone comes in and make a suggestion the other says well we discussed it in that place and then we decide not to. And it shouldn't be a good argument to counter. It should be, hey in this particular line of the Proposal, we summarize a discussion that has this rationale. So it's already discussed.
Pooja Ranjan 18:19: Yeah the general line of recommendation here is if you have anything with respect to the proposal like it's feeling in support or against please go ahead there. And if you have any specific spec changes please go ahead and make the comment at the GitHub. Because spec related changes it's better and easy to track on GitHub side. Very well we will continue to discuss it in upcoming meetings. I hope we have some solutions and some more thoughts collected from the community.
Pooja Ranjan 18:56: Moving on to the next item which is Call for Input. We see here around five call for input those are openSam if you would like to take each one of them.
Sam 19:08: Yeah sure. So we have 329 which is Victor's call for input. I think this is open until the 29th. And this is about author lists then we have 331 which is changing an author username open till May 2nd. Leave your comments. Then we have 332 which is Gajinder's proposal on how to treat typo correction PRs. Generally this one is open until May 8th. And then we have 333 which is changing more author usernames and this one is open until May 10th. That's all of them.
Pooja Ranjan 20:09: Thank you Sam. With that we can move on to the next item which we partially have already discussed there. Are a few questions on around how to do that. So we already discussed how we can perhaps create a more inclusive environment a placeholder for collaboration and discussion. The next point that we discussed partially in the previous meeting is about improving the EIPs review The Proposal review and how can we perhaps showcase EIP editors work and contribution. I understand we are receiving too many proposals. There are lot of open PRs and issues. However I'm happy to share that the number has decreased from the last meeting. So now we thought that it would be a good idea to keep tracking of open issues and PR in every meeting and we can take a look and see how we are progressing in that direction but I would appreciate, if there are any other suggestions of showcasing these Works being done on EIP editing site. Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas?
Sam 21:21: Showcasing in what sense like we want to just show people that we're making progress?
Pooja Ranjan 21:26: Yes of course like it's not that EIPs when like many people still complain that when we make a pull request it is unattended for a very long time but that's not the real case. Right now we are trying to attend as many as possible. So we just want to let people know that if it is unattended it's not because there are no editors to review it it's that that their volume has increased significantly. Like earlier when we did EAP editing office hour we received 27 PRs and out of 27, 14 were reviewed in 1 hour. So we made a very good progress over there so that can be tracked but I don't know how we it can be better represented so people understand the value of EIP editing and maybe get inspired to lend their hand to help out with other reviews. Yes, please go ahead.
Sam 22:32: I don't know maybe we leave a comment with estimated time until you get a review on Pull requests.
*Pooja Ranjan 22:40: BOT comment, automatic comment. That's a very good idea.
Sam 22:45: It might also just be terrible and make people angrier when it's like you'll get reviewed in six months.
Pooja Ranjan 22:54: No we need to be mindful of the timeline but that would give them a little bit satisfaction. That okay it's not completely unseen and then we can. I mean we will try to attend to those proposals. Obviously We are doing this editing office Hour. Try to attend most of them but if someone something is missed. That's a very good comment. I don't know I'm thinking of something like Dune dashboard or something for how many issues and PR are being closed in a month. I mean like on a weekly basis or on a monthly basis if that can be tracked.
Sam 23:33: We could also track like the average time Pull requests are open for I don't know if that's something EIP insights can do but that'd be an interesting metric.
Victor 23:46: I think EIP insights have a lot of very good visualization and insights. It just doesn't get displayed more often. If we can and like always link to an EIP insights for like weekly. That'll be helpful.
Pooja Ranjan 24:06: Yeah sure. We can perhaps consider this as another added metrics for EIP Insight average open time for PR. Might want to take a look into how it can be done but that's yes.
Victor 24:19: You want to link from the EIP website to EIP insights. It kind of intrigued me to think about that I think it might be helpful.
Pooja Ranjan 24:38: I wonder if anyone has any strong opinion in either direction. Okay maybe we can review the website one more time with all the metrics that we need and we'll try to up add it. Very well so that also covers like how we can lower the number of open issues and pull request. If we start working in this direction perhaps it will give us a good visibility of how many issues and PRs are being closed and yeah if we are making progress in that direction. One other thing which is not listed here which I would love to collect some thoughts and feedbacks here. We are being approached by a group of contributors who are willing to make their first pull request into the ethereum repository. Can there be a list of tasks that we can point them to maybe start working. For example I know we have been looking for automation of EIP numbering not that the current process is too much of a trouble. It's working fine but that was always under our review that we would be one day having it automated. So like this can we create this list and when people are looking for making their first PR. We can probably Point them towards this active list. What do people think about it? Like that may help our EIP editing process.
Sam 26:21: I think if we had a list of places to go and find stuff like for like EIPW has a lot of open issues on it that people can go in and grab it's just nobody knows to go and look there for them. So I think if we had like a landing page that's like take a look at these issues on these repositories if you want to find something to work on that might be useful.
Pooja Ranjan 26:49: Yes that's exactly what we are trying to do here we are trying to create a placeholder for that. We can perhaps do that on eth Cat Herders website for all open issues. We can point them towards but we would need to have a list of that. So one is EIPW which we think would be helpful for EIP editing process. Is there any work related to EIP bot is still pending. I see there are a lot of open issues but I'm not sure how relevant they are?
Sam 27:20: This is on EIP Review bot?
Pooja Ranjan 27:24: Yes.
Sam 27:26: This thing is kind of gone stagnant. Now that Panda has resigned. I can I like I'm capable of maintaining it but like I haven't really been pushing it forward.
Pooja Ranjan 27:45: So is that a good idea to maybe send interested individuals to what that repository and maybe we can talk to them once a month or something like that.
Sam 27:59: We can definitely do that. Yeah I guess Point them at me and we'll see what we can do.
Pooja Ranjan 28:06: Sounds good. But generally speaking to all other participants like all other editors I know you guys are maintaining so many repositories here. So if you find something for which you would be interested to seek Community support. Like there are group of students who would be interested in making contribution. Please let me know I will try to put all these repository at one placeholder and start pointing people to go towards that.
Sam 28:35: That sounds awesome. Thank you for handling that.
PR for review by RIP Editors - ethereum/RIPs#17
Pooja Ranjan 28:38: Yeah. No problem. All right. Let's move on to the next item. I think there is an open PR to be reviewed by RIP editor. I don't see RIP editor in the meeting. I don't know what to be done to maybe in I have been inviting them but I would try to understand how we can actually ask them to be a part of this because unless they are here there are certain things with respect to RIPs which we aren't able to move forward. So if anyone can persuade any Editor to join or maybe to review these proposals please please do that for us.
Pooja Ranjan 29:20: The next is a web page rendering to include EIP ERC and working group Charter. I understand for working group chatter this discussion was on hold for quite some time. I don't know Sam, if we are ready to discuss that because there are proposals. And I know people are interested to learn more about the idea of working group that you have proposed earlier. Sam 29:43: Yeah I just haven't been able to work on it and it's probably going to sit here for a little while longer unfortunately.
Pooja Ranjan 29:52: No problem. We can bring it back whenever we are ready. Moving on as I mentioned earlier in the meeting that I have tried to document all these open issues and PR. So it gives us a sense in upcoming meetings. How we are doing on that and we can perhaps start adding metrics. And yeah taking a look at the EIPs insight for the month of April. Wow we have 29 new drafts for four proposals including EIP and ERC. We don't see any change on RIP side and one proposal in last call for EIP as well as for ERC. On EIP The Proposal is 7587 which is Reserve pre-compile address range for RIP and the last call is ending tomorrow.We have planned a PEEP meeting with Tim Beiko to explain this proposal. This is also one of a kind of proposal in which we are allocating specific compile pre-compiled address range for rollup Improvement proposals. It will be interesting to learn more about this proposal but if anyone has any final common thoughts especially from the developers Community. Tomorrow is the last date for this proposal. And on ERC side. We have ERC 5564 which is again stealth addresses proposal and the end date for the last call here is April 30th. So people if you have any thoughts, comments or any last minute comment for respective proposals. Please add them to Fellowship of ethereum magician or the Pull request for these proposals. We have received a two final proposal on ERC this month. Those are ERC 7528 and ERC 7535. For details people may check out the EIPs Insight website.
Pooja Ranjan 32:04: The next one is EIP Editing Office Hour. I have already shared the stats that we reviewed in the last editing office hour. We have received quite a few good comment. People are learning a lot from this edit these editing office hours. So thank you Sam for taking out time and answering to individual questions. We look forward to receive more proposals more questions from the community. So we be able to get more standards and good one. All right I'm just quickly taking a look at the last meeting notes if we have any action item from the last meeting. Okay it looks all good to me and that perhaps bring us to the end of today's meeting. Does anyone has anything else to bring up or discuss?
Sam 33:25: Nothing for me.
Pooja Ranjan 33:29: Well thank you Sam for also looking into the earlier PRs and merging them simultaneously. And yeah someone please take a look at the spams as well. So we can close them off as well. Thank you everyone for joining us today and I hope to see everyone in two weeks.
- Pooja Ranjan
- Sam Wilson
- Nikki (@gaudren)
- Lightclient
- Victor
- Bumblefudge