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| Dear Sir or Madam, | ||
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| This is the official e-mail account of the Lawful Interception Unit of the Guardia Civil—which is one of the Spanish Law Enforcement Agencies. Since 1999, our unit has been working as the Guardia Civil's Single Point of Contact with Internet Service Providers and every other Online Service Provider that uses the telecommunication network in order to provide any service. Our main task is to request them important information or any other action regarding judicial investigations carried out by our investigation teams. | ||
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| In Spain, judicial authorities are responsible for the supervision and control of websites in order to prevent the dissemination of criminal content as it is specified in the article 35 of our Law 34/2002 and the article 13 of our Criminal Procedure Code. | ||
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| As you may have seen in the international media, Spain is currently facing a series of riots involving serious public disorder and main infrastructure's sabotage. There is an ongoing investigation being carried out by the National High Court where the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks. Tsunami Democratic's main goal is coordinating these riots and terrorist actions by using any possible mean. | ||
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| Among them, they have developed an app that provides information about those riots and allows their users to communicate between themselves in order to coordinate those actions. This app has been uploaded in GitHub by the user [private] ([private]), where people that want to participate in riots can access his repository ([private]) and install different versions of this app in their devices. Moreover, other repositories with the same information have been created to prevent the content being withheld. | ||
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| Concerning this situation, and in compliance with the Law, we send this e-mail with a national court warrant attached in order to request both withholding the content and data related to the aforementioned investigation. This is the same procedure that we follow with other service providers located in the United States, such as Microsoft or Google. | ||
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| Yours faithfully, | ||
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| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ||
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| Estimado señor o señora, | ||
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| Esta es la cuenta de correo electrónico oficial del Grupo de Interceptación de las Telecomunicaciones de la Guardia Civil, que es una de las agencias policiales españolas. Desde 1999, nuestra unidad ha estado trabajando como Punto de contacto único de la Guardia Civil con proveedores de servicios de Internet y cualquier otro proveedor de servicios en línea que utiliza la red de telecomunicaciones para proporcionar cualquier servicio. Nuestra tarea principal es solicitarles información importante o realizar cualquier otra acción relacionada con las investigaciones judiciales llevadas a cabo por nuestros equipos de investigación. | ||
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| En España, las autoridades judiciales son responsables de la supervisión y el control de los sitios web con el fin de evitar la difusión del contenido delictivo, tal como se especifica en el artículo 35 de nuestra Ley 34/2002 y el artículo 13 de nuestro Código de Procedimiento Penal. | ||
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| Como puede haber visto en los medios internacionales, España se enfrenta actualmente a una serie de disturbios violentos que involucran graves desórdenes públicos y el sabotaje de infraestructuras críticas. La Audiencia Nacional está llevando a cabo una investigación en la que el movimiento Tsunami Democratic ha sido confirmado como una organización criminal que impulsa la comisión de ataques terroristas. El objetivo principal de Tsunami Democratic es coordinar estos disturbios y acciones terroristas usando cualquier medio posible. | ||
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| Entre ellos, han desarrollado una aplicación que proporciona información sobre esos disturbios y permite a sus usuarios comunicarse entre ellos para coordinar esas acciones. Esta aplicación ha sido cargada en GitHub por el usuario [private] ([private]), donde las personas que desean participar en disturbios pueden acceder a su repositorio ([private]) e instale diferentes versiones de esta aplicación en sus dispositivos. Además, se han creado otros repositorios con la misma información para evitar que el contenido se retenga. | ||
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| Con respecto a esta situación, y de conformidad con la Ley, enviamos este correo electrónico con una orden judicial nacional adjunta para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionados con la investigación antes mencionada. Este es el mismo procedimiento que seguimos con otros proveedores de servicios ubicados en los Estados Unidos, como Microsoft o Google. | ||
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| Atentamente, |
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This is a pro-fascist action. You are attemting against several human rights, as free of assembly or the right of peaceful protest. We hope you rectify and apologize for this.
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@vczh that's the point, there is now law that could relate that with terrorism.
It's just police agencies accusing of terrorism, censoring web addresses, github pages, jailing people that commited no action, only to prevent supposed terrorist actions. When exists a non-violent movement of more then 80% of the population claiming that Catalans should vote, instead of that Spanish state (politics) force other statements (law) to retaliate people with a particular opinion jeopardising a lots of human rights like freedom of speech or right to protest (limiting that or banning).
Hundred of people, including me, being charged by the police and Spain criminal code only for forking github repositories.
Madness
https://catalanrepression.github.io/
https://spanishpolice.github.io/
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This is a good news. GitHub doesn't have to be used by terrorist organisations. Block airports is a terrorist act.
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Please @careuno explain how TF blocking an airport during a protest is a terrorist act.
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I'm glad, in github there is no place to politicize these actions and less those that have terrorist nuances. A French tourist has died at the airport because of this sick ideology.
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@BielStela airports are critical infrastructures for countries. Block them represents a serious crime. When that riot is used to damage airport users can be considered terrorism.
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Go cry outside.
A llorar al campo.
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I think this PR is not the place to discuss whether the Guardia Civil, the Spanish State and its Court system are entitled or not to qualify those civil disobedience acts as terrorism (I firmly believe they're not, but that's not the point here).
We should be thankful to Github for being transparent on why they're geographically blocking a repository. Whether we like it or not, it's a law enforcement agency asking for it. If we're not happy with it, Github is not the one to blame but the Spanish Govt and its Court system.
Please refrain for vomiting disrespectful, harassing opinions, this is not the place and it's obviously not constructive at all.
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Liar @Pinovski
You should not lie in favour of your personal opinions
Fact check https://maldita.es/malditobulo/que-sabemos-sobre-el-muerto-en-el-aeropuerto-de-el-prat-sufrio-una-parada-cardiorrespiratoria-y-fue-atendido-en-3-minutos/
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No need to argue with those that won't listen because this repression (against the catalan people) is OK to them. We can just keep posting this. instead for everyone to see:
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@josepjaume you should learn the difference between Catalan people and independentist people. The first group are normal people, the second group are sick people following a supremacist ideology.
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Cuando te despegues un poco de tu nacionalismo y tengas un poco de mente abierta y empatia, lee un poco a Martin Niemöller
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José Jaime enseñándonos donde ir a tumbar repositorios. Bien hecho, José Jaime. Eres grande, José Jaime.
José Jaime showing us where to go to close new catalan fascist repositories. Well done, José Jaime. You are big, José Jaime. Thanks, José Jaime.
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This takedown notice from Guardia Civil is shameful and irresponsible, as it is based on lies and it is only used as a political attempt to silence dissent. Tsunami Democràtic is a strict non-violent organisation, and there is no ruling or facts supporting those accusations of sabotage or terrorism.
It's good to see GitHub publishing this notice for everybody to see rule by law is no longer working in Spain, the nationalist and paramilitary Guardia Civil is just doing 'todo por la patria'.
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Cuanto llorón en este post xd. Saludos desde Badalona y gracias a GitHub por sus servicios! :)
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I don't know Spanish but this page seems to be a blog written by suspicious people and related to the terrorist movement.
More reliable sources:
https://tourism.interfax.ru/ru/news/articles/63384/
https://rossaprimavera.ru/news/9066b47e
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Tried to fix it in a PR #8 but I'm not sure all the tests pass.
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https://i.imgur.com/pvQnato.png as we can see the separatist movement has manipulated the information to deceive GitHub
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lavanguardia.com%2Fpolitica%2F20191018%2F471047437332%2Faudiencia-nacional-investiga-tsunami-democratic-indicios-terrorismo.html
Demonstrating and the right to strike IS LEGAL.
Cutting the road with burned tires, cutting highways, trains, airports and access to the university is NOT LEGAL therefore you are cutting people's freedom. The law responds in these cases, because otherwise all countries would be chaotic, and GitHub is consistent with it.
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Didac RIOS Español. (y charnego)
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Roger Firpo Español.
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Gracias Guardia Civil por dar de baja la propaganda de los naziSSeparatistas.
"El separatismo es una ideología de la mentira y la manipulación de la Historia. Usa el adoctrinamiento para extenderse, y la violencia para imponerse."
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Hilarious how do you use this as an insult. D'on no n'hi ha no en raja.
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Hilarious. It is not an insult, it is a proud state. The difference comes when it is an insult to you because you are a nazi separatist cheated by a fraud ideology.
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Block the entrance doors to the university, cut roads, burn the streets and
distribute fake tickets to block airports causing flight cancellations. Those are peace actions?
If you go block a city airport and create fake tickets to block their traffic you will get a police response. This is not yupi land
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Me enfrenté a la ley...
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Problem is, some people seem to think that democracy is doing whatever they want, whenever they want, no matter what. Democracy has its ways and rules, that's what separates democracy from anarchy. That applies to the right to protest too. You don't just randomly block access to airports, train stations and public building. As people said before, that's not protesting, that's sabotaging and is definately considered a form of terrorism by the law. There is a burocratic process that one must follow in order to make that rights effective. Just do things properly and you will be able to protest and strike as much as you want.
Bottom line is, this movement "tsunamic democratico" was endorsing and promoting those kind of acts, so here are the consequences.
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Good thing from GitHub to show some transparency about rule enforcement from governments.
Limit freedom of speech is against several international laws, being this said I'm against
closing public repositories whether you like the content or not. States should only be allowed
to arrest people who go against the law making direct illegal acts like burning cars or whatever,
but not about what their share, believe or write.
On the other side, I see many independent people from Catalonia trying to justify the violence, or saying only police
used violence publishing only their point of view, that's fake news and doesn't reflect the reality (There was violence on BOTH SIDES).
Note I'm not justifying police repression that sometimes is notorious.
To summarize:
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I could agree with you at some points, but considering the events and the lack of freedom we are facing in Catalonia, we should arise our voices and inform about the violence acts that are committing catalan and spanish police against people, using their antiriot equipment against their own laws, treating people within unrespectful behaviours, jailing people without reason, including people that were not at the strikes and are dinning in a terrace https://twitter.com/ActualidadRT/status/1188895983868039169
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What would you do if police arrest you, have you during a month in jail without natural light, with no respect for you as a human being treatment by the police and when the judge decide to view your case and realised that there is no reasons for being jailed? The damage is done, you lost days of freedom jailed without reasons
This is happening with most of the detentions in Catalan strikes, but the media, already plant their seed judging without trial and make people believe thinks that become false. Presumption of innocence here in spain does not apply, its quite the opposite, the fact is that you are a terrorist until you prove that not
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Felicidades :)
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Justice and the law sooner or later act.
All this was designed and created by nazi supremacists in order to segregate the rest of Catalans, incite hatred, prevent through violence that they can exercise their right to feel Spanish or educate their children in their language, Spanish.
With these applications, assaults have been planned on public buildings such as the parliament or airports, and violent aggression against police officers and judges.
In Catalonia, if you don't support the radical independence movement, they attack you and your family, they mark your business, they attack your children... this situation is unacceptable.
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Which represion are you talking about? The represion that independent catalans do into to the rest of catalans who doesn't have the same opinion?
aka a real catalan opressed by the lazis
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ehm, you realize millions of people are in the streets protesting, and that Catalonias independence parties have won all elections in this regard?
The fact that Spain here are listed next to Russia and China in a clear attempt of further repression, next to jailed politicians, jailed artists, plundered museums, article 155, denied voting rights, etc...
You obviously relate to "alternative facts" m8...
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I don't know in which world do you live, but independence have NOT won any elections. People who is in jail is because they BROKE the rules, they are not in the jail because of they way to think.
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If breaking the rules is defending human rights,
if protesting is terrorism,
if dissent is an attack to the state,
I am guilty too.
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@lbrtbdn
The current majority of mandat in the Catalan parlament is held by pro-independence parties. If they do not win the elections, how do they hold political power..? After article 155 was appointed, and a snap election was called, this mandat was defended by the voters. I agree that there is a polarized opinion in the region regarding independence, though I say that the opposition is mostly guided by fear. But all elections have been won by the pro-independence parties.
Regarding jail, I just pointed out that they are jailed politician, not why they are jailed. I agree that they broke the laws of Spain. I criticize the laws of Spain as they go against the right to self determination, which I recognize as a human right, next to the right to divorce your spouse or chose education and occupation.
But all of that is a different topic then the topic we started to discuss. We where talking about the repression that you stated is non existence, which obviously is incorrect.
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Have you seen at the root of the github/gov-takedowns repository, the countries that ever asked Github for taking down a repository? You can bring whatever arguments here, but this speaks for itself...
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Leaving aside political opinions, notice by reading all the comments, the only users that are telling lies and insulting describing catalan as nazis (using lazis invented word to call nazis Catalan people) it's people defending Spanish unity
Sure, Spain is in the Top 3 of consolidated democracies 🦄
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Don't be ridiculous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Spain the country with the 19th highest index of democray, better than Japan, USA, Portugal, France, Belgium, Italy, Grece, Poland and other 140 countries, and of course much better than Russia.
The same can be said about most other indexes measuring quality of life, safety, liberty, life expectancy...
The only region in Spain where rights and law are not respected is Catalonia, where radicals systematically segregate, threaten and attack the rest of the Catalans, even mark their businesses and fine them to prevent them from using the Spanish language.
And let's not forget that these nazis idolize ETA terrorists (for example Otegui is one of their advisors) and the genocide Lluís Companys, who assassinatedmore than 9000 civilians during the Republic.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
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When spanish nationalists like @skanskan does not have arguments they try to link a non-violent and peaceful movement with an extinct terrorist organization from the Basque Country called ETA that killed more than 800 people. 💃
All their arguments finish with
catalan people = ETAThen they flashback into the civil war to blame the anti-fascist side but do not condemn 40 years of dictatorship in spain, because it was so good: Franco build dams.
But the truth is that in 40 years of democracy nobody had the balls to break with the fascist bonds planted in all the institutions, and now he have political prisoners jailed for organising a referendum, civilians jailed for protesting, all of that with zero violence, while murders, rapers and people that tried a military coup d'État are condemned to less years of prison.
Enjoy your highest index of democracy
https://www.filmaffinity.com/ve/film815791.html
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https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/30/github-removes-tsunami-democratics-apk-after-a-takedown-order-from-spain/
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wtf..(◎_◎;)?
Does numbers are from 2018. What is being criticized is happening now, 2019. Let's see index for 2019 as a decision maker then, I think that's fare.
Spain is a great country, I agree. Just these things we speaking out about that are not.
What O_o? This is the first I ever heard of this... But what does that have to do with the subject...?
The ETA is not from or connected to Catalonias independence, they are connected to Basque independence fight; that's a completely different region.
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Franco's dictatorship ended 45 years ago. This dictatorship was a consequence of the Civil War, which in turn was a consequence of the Second Republic, where the extreme left and the nationalists (Companys) murdered tens of thousands of civilians.
Some of you don't appreciate that we already live in a democracy and that the majority of people want peaceful coexistence.
Some of you seem to want another war, you don't want to live together, you just want to violently impose your sectarian ideology.
ETA is from the Basque Country, of course, but they support the violence in Catalonia.
Arnaldo Otegui (ETA terrorist) appears in all your manifestations and collaborates with the most violent groups, the CDR.
Throwing thousands of large stones with the intention of killing, throwing Molotov cocktails, shooting steel balls, assaulting a judicial entourage and threatening their relatives, violently assaulting an airport (causing hundreds of injuries and the death of an old man), hurting hundreds of cops (one of them almost dies), violently cutting highways and railroad tracks... is not peaceful in any way.
And I remind you that 7 members of the CDR have been arrested for manufacturing and testing explosives (termite, ammonium nitrate, etc.) that they intended to use at various police headquarters.
I'm from Catalonia and I have to deal with these violent people every day.
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It's not the police who decide if something is a crime, it's up to judges (according to the law) to do it.
We cannot tolerate github being used as a hate advocacy or coordination centre for violent groups or terrorists.
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You tell 3 lies in 2 words.
The fact is since 2010 when this peaceful movement started to arise all the protests were non-violent. but in less than a month, police left without an eye 4 protesters, attacked journalists, not counting the 1066 injured during the 2017 referendum, when another persons lost an eye bye police attack.
You must contain your hatred, be open minded and do not believe what the mass media told you because you are lying when saying that 7 members of CDR manufacture and test explosive, you should read now that the secret have been released what is the truth and apology for lying.
This is what happens always with totalitarian states, they must make up a violent enemy its like what happened with other ops like Pandora or Pandora II against anarchist, they first accuse of terrorisme but then trials demonstrate that were non-guilty, but they almost spent 2 years in prison.
Before that Spain have an enemy to blame. they have ETA but now that are facing civil disobedience and non-violent protests they don't know how to act and they must plot scenarios and use mass media and public institutions like España Global (payed by all of us) to lie and claim against Catalonia
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Thats why they should not be in prison without a reason :)
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Yes, and the Francos laws and rulings still applies today. He was wrong then to not allow self determination, it is still wrong today.
It's not a democracy when people who voting is not allowed to vote. Instead 10 000 police troops is set in to stop the referendum with any means possible, that is what happen during the 1:st of October. Don't use democracy as an argument when describing the current political situation. What you describe is not what I call democracy - if you think it is, then we have very separate views of what democracy is.
No one wants another war, that's why people are voting, and outspokenly condemn violence.
It's a bit hard to ban a dude from joining a movement, but he is in no way involved in any political party that has mandat by the people to address the independence question.
No it is not peaceful after the sentencing of political prisoners, you are right that this will spark violence... much to the reason why we are criticizing Spain for having political prisoners... it will of course make the situation more tens. Spain can say it's illegal claiming independence, Spain can take away there representatives the ability to hold office, Spain can even fine them. That's it though, Spain don't need to sentence any politician to prison, unless the politicians are mobilizing a milissa or promoting violence. Such crimes have been investigated by the Spanish court, which stated that there was no acts of rebellion, that means, no encouragement of violence, or to take over by force.
I condemn every form of terrorism. However, I reject that the CDR is promoting violence in Catalonia, if you do such claims, please source prove.
What violence do you deal with? you don't mention any concrete violence you have suffered.
I'm from Catalonia, and never have any problems with anyone from the independence movement. I also don't see anything in the news, or in the streets, that reflect the violence you describe, apart from the counter reaction to sentencing there political representatives to many years in prison for doing the job they where given mandat by the people to do.
But what does all of this have to do with the fact that Spain is using censorship as a political tool?
Even if we have separate views on the independence question, please condemn Spains means, and the repression censorship represents.
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Nobody believes your lies anymore.
We live in a fully democratic country. We are enjoying freedom and democracy but that doesn't give you the right to do illegal things or to use violence to achieve your ends.
It wouldn't be legitimate to vote for things like the death penalty or for the legalisation of paedophilia or to discriminate against a people, as you intend to do with the rest of the Catalans.
Hitler was also voted, but that doesn't mean it was good nor legit.
And if we had to vote all Spaniards should do it.
Self-determination is not allowed in most countries in the world. Only colonies have the right to do it, and Catalonia is not a colony, and has never been a country. Previously it was part of the Crown of Aragon, which joined Spain by a treaty by mutual agreement.
We've lived together for centuries and we can't allow radical supremacists to try to put an end to it.
You haven't had any problem with the violent because you support them.
And there are thousands of official sources, you just need to stay away from the ultranationalist media (Ara, elnacional and TV3) :
https://www.larazon.es/espana/piden-dinero-para-la-celula-terrorista-de-cataluna-PD25152872
https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-contaban-celula-durmiente-capacidad-para-actuar-201910232150_noticia.html
https://okdiario.com/espana/abogados-cdr-terroristas-recaudan-fondos-festival-grupos-proetarras-4734543
https://okdiario.com/espana/interior-aplicara-terroristas-cdr-misma-politica-dispersion-que-etarras-4637688
https://www.larazon.es/espana/los-cdr-se-concentran-delante-del-cuartel-que-era-objetivo-de-la-celula-terrorista-BE25126623
https://www.larazon.es/espana/cdr-el-comando-los-diablos-para-llevar-a-cataluna-al-infierno-CO25097720
https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2019/09/30/juez-asegura-cdr-detenidos-fueron-enlace-torra-puigdemont/0003_201909G30P16996.htm
https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/politica/2019-09-28/torra-cada-vez-mas-acorralado-tambien-se-entrevisto-con-uno-de-los-cdr-detenidos-por-terrorismo-1276645442/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19/how-fake-news-helped-shape-the-catalonia-independence-vote/
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/04/25/inenglish/1524663921_786957.html
https://www.vozpopuli.com/politica/ultima-hora-cataluna-hoy-quim-torra-violencia-barcelona_0_1293471203.html
https://www.elimparcial.es/noticia/206312/comunicacion/nuevo-pulso-del-separatismo-con-otegui-a-la-cabeza.html
https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/politica/2019-09-28/torra-estaba-al-corriente-de-los-planes-terroristas-de-los-cdr-segun-uno-de-los-detenidos-por-terrorismo-1276645437/
https://www.cope.es/programas/herrera-en-cope/monologo-de-las-8-de-herrera/noticias/herrera-con-matanzas-que-eta-causado-cataluna-algunos-los-cdr-hacen-fotos-con-otegi-20190924_504639
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/23/spanish-police-arrest-catalan-separatists-on-suspicion-of-terrorism
https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/26/inenglish/1569483015_617275.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/23/spanish-police-arrest-nine-catalan-independence-activists-suspicion/
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Have you check how many citiziens vote YES to the independence? was less than the 50% . Is easy to hold pro-independence parties when the vote of Barcelona is not the same of the vote from someone of North-Catalonia, and the fact is most pro-independence people doesn't live in Barcelona or Tarragona, that's why "Tabarnia" started as a joke and looks like they are serious right now. I'm sorry but independence has no sense since Artur Mas was the one who start to promote it,I know exists from before Artur, but he started to claim it because he would go to the jail, and used the independence to avoid the jail. Just for that you can see that independence people is manipulated.
It's funny how people hates the "right" parties calling them fascist and more, when is a right party who started ti proclame the independence, and now there are both sides parties claiming it, so if in the future they achieve it, do you think they will agree in the points? If in Spain Right and left never can live together, do you think is gonna be different with independence? People can't see far away from where they masters point. They think if they proclame independence, the rest is gonna be easy, everyone will be rich, and more. But the fact is that would take loooong time to check if independence is worth it.
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Idk what you are referring to, but millions of people share my views on what I spoken about. Further repression of views align with fundamental democratic philosophy will have the expected effect, which I do condemn, but understand the evolution of.
Yes it would be legitimate to vote for "death penalty or for the legalization of pedophilia", I expect the opposition to be stronger and the matter is solved democratically, that's why we hold these democratic principles so high, as it is a source of truth. Your refer to the law as a source of truth, it's a fundamental difference to our perspectives.
It was right to allow Hitler to be a democratic representative until he was jailed for rebellion, and where he wrote Mein Kampf. As I stated before, if a political power is mobilizing a rebellion, then I agree with you, but that is not the case we are talking about.
I respect this view more then anything else you wrote. Though I disagree, as I value in self determination as a human right, as I stated before, I value this principle on the same level as the right to divorce your spouse.
I have no opinion about the statistics regarding who allows self-determination in other countries. It is imo irrelevant who else is wrong on these matters. What is criticized is however not the illegality of independence, the criticism is related to the means Spain uses to repress the opposition. Putting politicians in jail, artist in jail, plundering museums, etc... and what here is acknowledged, the censuring of the internet in ways that only Russia and China has done before.
That's fine, just don't put people in prison and don't use force to prevent a vote. Label the vote illegal and remove the representatives from office, then you are in the clear. The way you argue, you use the repression as a tool to reach your goal.
I don't support independence above a constitutional change. My interest in the matter is related to a democratic and free Europe.
No-one knows who I support, people just don't bother me in general...
I only viewed international news, I don't speak Castilian or Catalan good enough to follow local news.
Below I only responded to the English media that you referenced
This only relates to fake images spread online. This always happens, it does not mean that all images and all videos of police brutality are fake. Some are, most are not...
The repression during the 1:st of October has been reported multiple times by the international media that has wittiness the repression for them self: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de8-5FUVBwk
I condemn such behavior described in this article, but again, it is not justifying the current repression.
I condemn this approach, using explosives to achieve your goal, that these people of the CDR seem to have acted by. If this is justified by the organization CDR, then I condemn the organization as well. It still doesn't justify Spains repression in the region though.
And again...
What does all of this have to do with the fact that Spain is using censorship as a political tool?
Even if we have separate views on the independence question, please condemn Spains means, and the repression censorship represents.
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@lbrtbdn
Another lie, there were no vote for Yes/No independence in 2017 elections, the only vote for yes/no was the referendum jeopardized by the police (they are still searching for the ballot boxes BTW)
If you claim that less than 50% people vote yes, do not lie, and talk about all the truth:
Pro-independent parties held 47,5% of the votes and 70 deputies which means more than a half of the Catalan Parliament 70/135
Unionist parties held 43,45% of the votes meaning 57/135 deputies, less than a half
There were a 7% of voters 8 deputies that are not positioned into YES/NO side and advocate for reaching a political solution like a referendum.
This is the truth with real data.
Then you could go to different surveys that show us a line between 68% and 80% of people claiming for a Referendum like the one of the first of October 2017: https://www.newtral.es/cuantos-catalanes-estan-a-favor-de-un-referendum-de-autodeterminacion/20190213/
And not talking about Spanish state forcing and article of the constitution exceeding their competences, judges undermining political rights to avoid them to be elected as presidents or as parliamentarians in catalonia, spain and Europe against the vote of more than 2.000.000 of European citizens.
When political parties like Ciudadanos, and Partido Popular (founded by Alianza Popular with plenty of dictatorship mandates) are full of pro-Franco supporters and voters, when political statements in Parliaments are done to vote against fascism and those parties not only vote for not voting against but also abandon the parlamient
More lies, trying to undermine catalan movement relating to a right parties movements. Most of the pro-independent people where on the left side, this because, banned Artur Mas to continue as president of Catalonia
Politics are consensus and like it or not you must rule for all the people.
Nobody assure that an independent Catalonia all will live mounted in the euro , but having more autonomy/independence/federalism (name it whatever you like) will allow serving better their citizens, and since 2010 the "constitution" in Catalonia called "Estatut" were cut down by the State against the will of the their citizens, and increasing day by day until today the hatred into spanish unionism that not only they hate catalan people (we could see this on the unionist manifestations this days), but want us in jail or beaten and humiliated by the police.
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The Economist Democracy Index
https://assets.weforum.org/editor/large_aJ_-6-oPSu6Un6k0OhjckpZbauDnbJwowP7QYPXhiw8.PNG
https://st3.idealista.com/news/archivos/styles/news_detail/public/2018-02/espana_a_tope.jpg?sv=AtfLuKQX&itok=Gdxfp6zK
Strasbourg judgements by country
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/files/2012/03/Cali-fig-1.jpg
As we can see all the agencies responsible for measuring democracy are consistent. The number of judgments of the Strasbourg court in Spain is lower than countries like Belgium, the Scandinavian countries, Germany ...
As I imagined, this is part of the separatist imagination. When scientific arguments fail, there is only one possible way out: create a fictional discourse.
I know separatists from other countries, and honestly they are not very different from the Catalans. I see the same thing: obsession to say that they are economically, genetically and socioculturally superior to the Spaniards.
The only argument of the Catalans is to wave flags and nationalism in squares, a lot of emotional discourse and patriotism, but few intellectual arguments. It is really surprising that this type of superficial and primitive discourse continues to be successful outside the 19th century.
In this case I did not know that they marked the business of the Spaniards. It reminds me of the Nazis what they did with the Jews. Hopefully the situation will be resolved as these people will not hesitate to impose their interests, and for that they will use much more powerful terrorist attacks than the previous ones.
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If you have a political system where less then 50% can hold mandated power, then I agree with your criticism. But as it stands, the election results are in the pro independence favor.
The independence movement have much deeper roots then what the statement "Artur Mas was the one who started promoting it". Me personally, I don't care for independence as much as I care about the repression and democratic freedom that are challenged. If independence is the only way to solve the constitutional differences we have, then I agree with independence.
I am myself a classical liberal, on the economical "right". The independence movement in Catalonia is joined across the blocks on the question of independence. Will they be able to agree? No, I expect differences to be argued in alignment with democratic methods, eg: voting and discussing to reach suitable adoption to the local people of Catalonia. A government that is closer to the people has a stronger opportunity to represent the people.
The fact is that there is no country that ever has reached independence and that has regret it. Catalonia would be an exception to the general rule on this matter.
The democratic philosophy I hold high is principles that has been described by Aristotle, Socrates and more recently by Leopold Kohr. I reject the notion that I listen to masters, or that I would carry believes that we all be rich.
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You are referencing old statistics. When the indexes comes out for 2019, then lets revisit the comparison between nations on democratic freedom. And please, stay in context, compare Spain with the rest of Europe, not Russia or China, everyone understands there are less democratic free countries in the world. If your endgame is to say that Spain are not the worse country in the world, then this discussion is quite fruitless...
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Well remember that the first that insulted the rest of the citieziens were the independence people calling fascists the one who doesn't share the same opinion, or charnegos to those people who lives in catalonia and are oposite to the independence.
Just to remind you, catalonia is formed by the charnegos, wanna check how many people belong to pure catalan families?
We call them lazis because Independence catalonia movement remembers to the nazis, point the people who thinks different, forbidding to do whatever oposites wants, insulting, hitting just for belong to the unionist team, etc.
So tell me who threw the first stone, because as catalan I've never had problems until your masters start lieing and manipulating you, and if you think you are not manipulated just check the last video from TV3 where they cut the emission because the reporter said there was no infiltrators on the riots. Independence movement has lost any credibility just on the way that their people actions.
And FYI if it would depend of me we would have not any spanish politician, neither catalanm I would change everything because both sides sucks, but I don't think independence of catalonia is the solution because both ways are manipulated.
When the rest of the world tries to unite people from all cultures, catalans try just the opposite just because someone says Spain is stealing us.
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Pirates de Catalunya denuncia al Estado Español y la Comisión Europea ante el Tribunal de Justicia de la Unión Europea
https://pirates.cat/bloc/pirates-de-catalunya-denuncia-al-estado-espanol-y-la-comision-europea-ante-el-tribunal-de-justicia-de-la-union-europea/
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GRECO calls for an overall anticorruption strategy and effective implementation of laws in Spain
https://www.coe.int/en/web/greco/-/greco-calls-for-an-overall-anticorruption-strategy-and-effective-implementation-of-laws-in-spain
Noticed a few down-votes on my post, so figured I follow up with others views on this topic then my own.
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Hej @didacrios didn't you call these ppl terrorists? Well, they are out on bail, as the courts are not as quick to pass judgement on someone as you seem to be.
https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/two-cdr-activists-arrested-on-terrorism-charges-released-on-bail?fbclid=IwAR2N0AbWRh2HATiK8ed3A7PH1CLvzxVWPDAspDqJVzj04Pi-ixHmAFu3c7A
Ideologically blinded fool... trying to create drama where there is none...
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@superhero please, read my messages, im not the one who's saying that shit.
Other people in this thread should correct their accusations as well as the majority of the spanish press
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Sorry about that, made a comment after a quick search above, didn't really read the context.. anyway; you, whoever it has been, message is to you... not wasting my time reading through above and don't wanna make the same mistake twice by making the same quick search.