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I'm not sure if "Tsunami" is a good name. But I need your opinion. #5
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Hi, I am a Japanese Software Developer. In my opinion, I do not think Tsunami is unsuitable name. Tsunami is just natural phenomenon. As you know "Dagger" are killing many people. But many Android app developers use that :) |
I side with @keiji. I speculate the term "Tsunami" was brought up because of the wave of attacks. |
@keiji |
I'm lacking context: was there a specific complaint? If so, perhaps that should be brought up. In terms of pure terminology, Tsunami, Hurricane, Tornado, Earthquake... all of these sound fine to me. They are dangerous, they are sometimes cause of great grief, but they are natural phenomena and I don't think there exists an underlying harmful intention. As a counter example, I think one could argue that a term like Kalashnikova (aka AK-47) represents tool made to specifically kill people and therefore should be avoided to be used in a project name. In this sense I think Tsunami seems OK to me. |
Hi. I am also a Japanese engineer. I know many people in Japan and other countries are affected by earthquakes and tsunamis, but, I feel no negative from the word "Tsunami" itself, just feel warning. So in my opinion, there are no need to change the name. |
IMHO: Keep the name (Never change it away) but watch tsunami videos in YouTube and please re-define the word of tsunami by the product. |
In fact, there is a song which has same name and is very famous in Japan. It was released in 2000. I think it indicates that whether some name is acceptable or not is related to historical context. The really big tsunami disaster was occurred in 2011 and 10 years have passed after that. Of course I still have pain and have slight feelings not want to recall it, but personally I don't think you need to change the name. Changing name is certainly an extra work and I think we shouldn't force it unless there is a huge requirement. But I also think it's safer if this tool will become very famous... (e.g. 20k stars) |
"Tsunami" definitely reminds me of the 3.11 disaster in Japan and makes me uneasy. IMO, the number of Japanese those feel uncomfortable due to this reason is not very small. I hope the name to be changed. |
Hi @madai0517, No, I think black/white and master/slave discussion is about discrimination. |
As a Japanese software developer, I felt it was nonsense to rename at a first glance. |
To be honest, Tsunami sounds SUUUUPER negative to me, and it's OK if you want to use some negative name. |
I'm leaning against the side to change the product name because of the following reasons:
Given above, I think this is a good opportunity to think about the product name with reviewing the Code of Conduct and the product marketing message. Though the latter one is not shared in this repository. If the authors have the background on naming the product, then it's great to have it publicly, and if not, I feel it's safer to have more descriptive name for the product. |
Hi, I'm a Tokyo-based developer. Why is this project using a "destructive" name? When I first heard "Tsunami", I thought it might be a kind of attacking tool. In my humble opinion, negative image of the word aside, it looks weird. |
"Tsunami" means an attacking tool rather than a defencing tool. I propose it should be named after a breakwater. |
I also thought "Tsunami" is a sort of mass destruction tool. Setting aside the disaster the word might imply, I hope products have the name which avoids such misunderstandings. |
Random dude here. I understand the feelings of Japanese devs thinking Tsunami might not be an appropriate name(my friend lost his home on 3.11 but luckily survived), but I also think they might be a bit too sensitive. Let's say if this product was named after some other natural disasters involving some deaths, like Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Volcanic Eruptions, Avalanches, Landslides, Meteor strikes or something like that. If google team still thinks it's not that big problem, then yeah, I'd say go for it. If they don't, they should look for better names. EDIT: I've just found that there already is an web server framework called cyclone.io on python. We all should think carefully that bringing out sentimental logic could affect these existing products. 日本語版: 日本人の方々の「不適切じゃないか」という反応も理解はできるのですが(友人が家を失くしたりしたので)、若干過剰反応じゃないかなあと思わないでもないです。 例えばこのプロジェクトが津波じゃなくて別の人死が出る自然災害の名前から付けられたとして、それでもGoogleが問題ないと判断してるならそれで良いんじゃないかなと思います。例えば台風とか竜巻とか噴火とか火砕流とか雪崩とか地滑りとかメテオストライク的な。彼らがそれはちょっと…と思うのなら変えたほうが良いんじゃないかなって程度です。 追記: 先程cyclone.ioというpythonのwebサーバフレームワークがあることを知りました。これも津波と同様に毎年人死がある自然災害ですので、「人が死んだのに」とか「悲しくなる」的な論理はこういった既存のサービスにも持ち出されうるものですから、慎重に考えたいですね。 |
Original Issue author here. This thread is already getting to be dramatic with lots of Japanese comments, so let's please add any more comments if you are...
Hope you understand. Issueを作ったものです。 ここから先は、以下のいずれかに該当する方のコメントをお願いいたします。
ご理解の程よろしくおねがいします。 |
I have a question for authors of this OSS. What kind of wishes and/or expectations did you give this name? |
How about The problem is that: If this project continues to use this name, I cannot recommend this tool to my friends live in the Tohoku area. この名前のままだと「誰にでも気持ちよく紹介できるような名前ではない」という点が問題として残ると思います。 |
In my opinion, "Tsunami" is popular word like "TSUNAMI" that Japanese famous song. Anyway, my suggestion is "How about 'Shiosai not Tsunami". if this tool has meaning of wave. Please consider. |
If you say it's a natural phenomenon and it's not a problem, then even if you named it 9.11, it's just Doesn't that mean it's not a problem because of the date? === 自然現象だから問題ないというのであれば、仮に9.11という名前をつけたとしても、ただの日付だから問題ないという事になりませんか? |
By the way, maybe it's because I lost my house and family in the tsunami. If Google were a private developer with no influence over Japan in this corner of the world, the name of the software I think it's rather nonsensical to force people to change their names to As the software is also used by the Japanese, I think it is important to consider whether the name of the project, which is not directly related to the tsunami, really needs to be tsunami. === ちなみに私が家や家族を津波で失っているからかもしれませんが、 Googleが世界の片隅の日本に対して何の影響力もない個人開発者だったらソフトウェア名の改名を迫ることはむしろナンセンスだと思いますが 日本人も使うソフトウェアである以上、津波に直接関係しないプロジェクトの名前が、本当に津波である必要性があるのかは考えるべきだと思います |
Hi, I'm a Japanese developer. If the concept of the product is to be a tool to scan for vulnerabilities, Tsunami reminded me of something like a large-scale software attack, since I'm on the receiving end of a disaster. I thought a name that reminded me of a breakwater, like @zacky1972, would be good as another name. Thanks. |
@yuzujoe Thanks for your understanding. Let's hope @magl0 or someone else that is involved with this project writes something soon! 🙏 |
Fantastic #letsDoThis also lets get rid of Dagger as well xD |
I have no idea about "Tsunami" is a good or bad name, but I'm simply interested in why this project named "Tsunami". |
This implies that Japanese people do not comment. Issues opened by discriminators should be closed. You should expel the discriminators. |
I don't disagree with using Tsunami as a product name, but I disagree with using Tsunami for commercial purposes. In general, people wouldn't accept someone to do unrelated business using people's pain. Many Japanese people would feel uncomfortable with the use of Tsunami for commercial purposes. If Tsunami is used for non-commercial and public benefit products or projects, it will be widely accepted. Another, do you want to use Pandemic for the name of this product? Using Tsunami for the name of this product is the same as it. Neither Pandemic nor Tsunami is appropriate for the name of this unrelated product. |
Naming new product and changing the name of long lived product is a different issue. Additionally, "Tsunami" is word borrowed from Japanese. And many Japanese still have strong association between "Tsunami" and the 3.11 disaster. So listening on how Japanese people feels when hear the word "Tsunami" is a good consideration.
The popular song "TSUNAMI" by "Southern All Stars" (2000) was named before the 3.11 disaster (2011). |
Why don’t we just wait for the googles statement now |
I think it is inappropriate to tell things just by the person who passed away. 私は、亡くなった人だけで判別をするのは不適切だと思います。 |
Please stop any more comments until google posts here |
OK, Let's wait for the google statement. But I would like to only say this. maybe I think many people have a negative image of a Tsunami, however, I wonder the person with this name doesn't would like people have a negative image for themselves name. So, I just can only say that Tsunami is meaning not always negative in Japanese. |
I really appreciate that you'll respectfully wait for them. However, I would not like to make any exception and there should not be no "but" after my suggestion. I really hope you will delete your comment. I would have asked the same thing no matter what your opinion is. I apologize. I will delete this comment when you kindly follow my offer. |
@inductor I agree your opinion. I worry if Google won't reply this issue. So, what about setting deadlines for when we need to be silent? |
I don't think we need a deadline; If the core devs ignores, it means it isn't important for them. |
The tsunami is not a bad image, it is used as the title of a Japanese major song, and is widely known to the people. |
Hi, although I'm not a stakeholder nor a victim of 3.11, I feel compelled to leave a comment since one important point is being missed out. Terms should be and have been changed when it impacts the way society works. However, it would be sincere (although not necessary) for a large company not to use terms that might offend people. While whitelist/blacklist is about social justice as a company, master/slave and Tsunami is about being sincere and maintaining popularity. |
Disaster is a different issue from discrimination. Therefore referring master/slave or blacklist/whitelist is not effective on this issue. For example, existing names using master/slave may to be asked to change, but Tsunami wasn't asked. This is one of the difference between them. Discrimination creates mistakes. So you must correct the wrongs. Disasters create trauma instead of mistakes. So there is basically no need to correct the wrongs. But you need to take into account the trauma. Japanese people pay a lot of attention to the word Tsunami. Google should also pay the same attention. |
So, what’s the issue? Goodness or badness of the tsunami prefix in the product name? I think that the issue is unawareness of a strong contextual bias behind the word of tsunami as of today, that still bounds us Japanese onto an association between the word and the disaster.
EDIT: P.S. I meant Japanese is everyone who lives in an area where Japanese language is commonly used or who lives with Japanese language in a daily basis. |
To @inductor To avoid miss communication by my bad English, I wrote my own thinking in Japanese. ADD: すいません。投稿してみたら、異常に長くてビックリしました。少し朝早く起きたため、テンションが高く、内容や言葉遣いが攻撃的だったりすれば、申し訳ありません。ただ、他の方と同様に、書かずにはおれませんでした。。 |
Currently, it seems that no other questions have been asked other than "What do you think about google about the word Tsunami?" I felt that it was difficult to give an official opinion when the questions were broad and the discussion was not mature. Also, it seems that there are many opinions that "wait for google's opinion", but I am concerned that it may be a burden on the Maintainer. From the impression that I saw the Issue, I felt that I would like to discuss as an Open Source Community so that the Maintainer and users will be more motivated. Personally, the name Tsunami was certainly surprised, but I hope that the widespread use of this term will spread the danger of the tsunami and reduce the next damage. By the way, what was your intention to limit the number of people who can comment, regardless of past experience or country, despite the moral issues? |
現在のところ"Tsunamiというワードについて、googleはどう思いますか?"以外の質問はされていないように見受けられました。質問内容が広く、かつ、議論も成熟していない状態では、公式見解を出すのは難しいと感じました。 また、"googleの意見を待とう"という意見が多いようですが、Maintainerにとって負担になっていないかと危惧しています。 Issueを見た印象では、Open Source CommunityとしてもっとMaintainerと利用者のモチベーションが上がるような議論をしたいな、と感じました。 個人的には、Tsunamiというネーミングは確かにビックリしましたが、この言葉が広く使われることで、津波に対する危険性が広まり、次の被害が軽減されればと考えています。 ところで、道義的な論点にも関わらず、コメントできる人を過去の経験や所属国等より制限することは、どのような意図があったのでしょうか? |
Hi, I am a member of this project. Thanks @inductor for bringing up the issue and everyone for the active discussions. We did not intend to make anyone feel uneasy and apologize for the troubles that this might have caused. We would like to clarify the intended meaning behind the name: Internally, the Tsunami Security Scanner is part of a bigger system that we initially called the "Tsunami Early Warning System". The purpose of this system is to warn us about automated "attack waves". Automated attacks are similar to Tsunamis in the way that they come suddenly, without prior warning and can cause a lot of damage to organizations if no precautions are taken (e.g. see Equifax, CapitalOne breaches). The term "Tsunami Early Warning System Security Scanner" is quite long and thus most folks simply abbreviated the name to "Tsunami Security Scanner". Hence, the name is not an analogy to Tsunami itself, but to a system that detects them and warns everyone about them. We will update our documentation to provide more details about the choice of name. We hope that this addresses the concerns. We will close this issue for now, but please let us know if you have further concerns or objections. |
@magl0 First and foremost, I wanted to say congratulations on your newly starting project. While I respect your decision, only thing I want you to do is to learn what Tsunami is and what 3.11 was like. You can learn it anytime on Youtube before you update the documentation. That's it. I wish someday Google will pay respect to minorities like us. Cheers. |
You should have changed the name when forking like Borg. |
@sapics @intercept6
今見返してみるとお二人のおっしゃるとおり完全なダブルスタンダードで、このトピックに対して自分の対応は矛盾したものになっていました。お詫びさせてほしいです。申し訳ありません。 それもあって一旦メンテナの意見を待つという対応をとったのですが、そもそも初動がよくなかったという反省もあります。
これは全くそのとおりで、これ以上深く考えていなかった、というのが僕の正直な回答です。 @sapics さんが提案しておられることはどれも建設的でいいなと思いますが、僕自身GitHubやチャット、Twitterなどでコミュニケーションをとることが最もなれた手段であり、クローズドな方法やメールを使うという方法も思いついていませんでした。 今回のIssueを発端にいろいろなことを勉強させていただきましたが、未熟さのために様々な人に不快をさせてしまい反省しています。ご意見心より感謝を申し上げます。 |
@magl0 Thank you very much for your response. I really appreciate it. Again, thank you for your answer. |
To: Maintainers Thank you for your answer. @inductor
私も実際のところ、Openな場で意見をselectするのは難しいかなとは思いながら書きましたので、何か他にあったかな、程度に思っていただければ幸いです。Wordingの炎上しやすさを考えると、メールという選択肢はあったかもしれません。 個人的には、@inductorさんのようにOpen Source Communityの中で大変ご活躍されている方をとても尊敬しているため、commentを消すように誘導されていたのに対して違和感を感じて、意見を書かせていただきました。 本issueの作成自体は、projectの方に私達には複雑な気持ちを感じるwordなのだと知っていただける機会になり、良かったと思います。 少し分野は違いますが、今後もOpen Source Communityにてご活躍されることを陰ながら応援しています! |
Today, there are no changes in the documentation about this. Has this discussion become a waste? |
I don't think that our opinion has been become a waste. |
Since the maintainer said the documentation will be updated, I thought the last maintainer's comment will be reflected in the documentation. But there are no changes until today. This means that the maintainers just forgot it or changed their thought. I posted the previous comment for the former case. Of course, the latter is also ok. I thought this topic is important, joined this, understood the maintainer's answer, and expected the changes in the documentation as the maintainer said. But there are no changes until today. I was wondering that no one asked this. Not all commenters assessed this as high and some transient interests have made the discussion worse, I think today. |
Or, as one possibility, they are busy for various reasons. Please. |
Hi, |
5d19a32 Thank you for the update. |
I can't stop coming back here today, where I realized the word of "Tsunami" is still so meaningful for me. Big thank you to this issue. |
Hello. I am a Japanese engineer.
I am not claiming this is bad, you must change the name, or anything like that.
I opened this issue to ask opinions to y'all.
I am not SUPER familiar with the recent "wording" issues around protests so I apologize in advance but I wonder if you ever discussed this is a good naming.
Japan and some countries have had a huge earth quake, which brought a huge tsunami afterwards. The impact those gave still remains at the disaster area. Even though I am not one of the victim, I felt like I have to ask this, but I don't want to make any drama so if you want to close this issue you can, but at least I would like some opinions from the OSS team.
Thanks,
日本人の方向けに追記(adding some follow-up for Japanese speakers):
こちらのツイートでも表明していますが、Issueを立てた目的は「関わる皆さんの意見」を問うものであり、私が「日本人にとってこれは不謹慎に聞こえる」と言うために立てたIssueではありません。
追記2:
初動を完全に間違えてしまいました。皆様申し訳ありません。#5 (comment)
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