Render some disc_golf features (similar to analagous golf=* features)

[pkoby]

Currently, no disc_golf features are rendered, but I think they could be added to the map similarly to golf features, probably using the same code but adding a query for disc_golf=*.

At this time, OSM Carto shows golf=tee, but not golf=hole or golf=pin. disc_golf=tee could be rendered the same as golf=tee (light green rectangle). Ideally, then, there could be some rendering of disc_golf=basket, as this is a fixed point, unlike the golf=pin which moves around the green. The basket could be a new point icon, or perhaps a leisure-green dot with basket number?

Finally, we have icons for leisure=golf_course and leisure=miniature_golf. Could there be a leisure=disc_golf_course icon for polygons or relations of features?

There is not a huge number of any single disc_golf=* feature, but it looks like there are about 1450 holes (in 380 courses) of disc golf out there: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disc_golf#values

[HolgerJeromin]

Ref https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=disc_golf_course
No wiki page for the subfeatures

[pkoby]

Whoops, yeah. This lists subfeatures with taginfo totals: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disc_golf

[Adamant36]

It would be a major improvement if just disc golf courses were rendered at this point. Then a lot of the miss-tagging of them with name=disc_golf and other things to get them to render wouldn't be as likely to happen.

[jeisenbe]

The documentation for these tags is still limited and needs improving.

From the proposal: "[disc] golf is usually in a park or wood and only in special cases at a single-use area" - so an area is problematic, but where would a node be placed?

Should disc golf courses be mapped as areas or nodes? What defines the borders of an area used for disc golf?

I'd suggest making a new proposal and discussing it with the Tagging mailing list, then updating the Wiki with more complete information.

The old proposal is from 2011 and has not been updated since 2012.

It would be difficult to develop a good rendering without clear tagging and documentation

[matkoniecz]

OSM Carto shows golf=tee

Are you sure? I think that it shows landcover (correctly or incorrectly) mapped that also matches shape of golf=tee. (though I am not sure)

[matkoniecz]

Finally, we have icons for leisure=golf_course and leisure=miniature_golf. Could there be a leisure=disc_golf_course icon for polygons or relations of features?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Ddisc_golf_course has just 381 uses worldwide

[pkoby]

Are you sure? I think that it shows landcover

That's probably true. I didn't investigate it too far. Usually tees are surrounded by fairway, which I guess uses the same rendering by landcover, so it's hard to tell.

[Adamant36]

"has just 381 uses worldwide"

That's probably because of all the miss tagging. It doesn't seem to be supported in iD editor either. Unless I missed it. @pkoby, you might want to see if iD and JOSM will support a preset for it if they don't already, do some re-tagging of the things that are miss-tagged, and then come back to this once all that's done. I'm more then willing to do some tag fixing for it myself once iD has support for it if you want to @ me when it does.

[jeisenbe]

I am closing this for now because the tag is still rare and the wiki documentation needs improving, as mentioned above. This issue can be reopened if those change.

[jeisenbe]

Reopening for discussion related to PR #4557

@jdmonin do you have new comments about these tags?

[jdmonin]

Thanks @jeisenbe for reopening the discussion.

Mapping of these features has grown since the 2019 analysis, and last week iD released presets for disc golf courses, holes and baskets.

The wiki pages are also more specific now:

• Key:disc_golf
• Tag:disc_golf=hole
• Tag:leisure=disc_golf_course
• Tag:sport=disc_golf
• etc

So, I think it's ready for rendering.

Here's current usage data; from my notes, within the last week disc_golf key usage has grown by 1%.

Feature	Total	Nodes	Ways	Relations
disc_golf key	10094	6337	3753	4
sport=disc_golf	2589	1458	1062	69
leisure=disc_golf_course	1436	946	430	60

(disc_golf values include 3364 holes, 3236 tees, 3096 baskets.)

I've submitted PR #4557, which renders those new presets.
I do need to add a commit there to also render areas and POIs for sport=disc_golf courses.

[imagico]

Since i am not familiar with the sport in question:

We render golf course in the differentiated way we do because they are:

• fairly wide spread world wide (both in reality and in mapping)
• tend to be physically large and distinct, limited access single purpose facilities (i.e. a golf course is rarely used for anything other than playing golf) - hence there are no other features that are of interest for the target map user within a golf course other than those serving the sport.
• have a clear consensus tagging scheme with no competing tags.
• are often diligently mapped in a structured way with the details of the sport related infrastructure.

Can you explain if and to what extent the same applies for disc golf?

My (evidently superficial) impression is that this is more like other (speciality) sports and less like golf and disc golf courses are mostly secondary uses of public spaces like parks and that and therefore would better be served by being addressed as part of #844.

[Adamant36]

My (evidently superficial) impression is that this is more like other (speciality) sports and less like golf and disc golf courses are mostly secondary uses of public spaces like parks

I can only speak to the disc golf courses in my area, but as far as I know they are all in separate areas then parks/public wilderness. Although in most cases they are next to them. Generally disc golf frisbees are heavier and denser then normal ones since they are meant to be thrown for much further distances. So tossing them around where kids are playing or people are lounging around wouldn't be great. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in cases where they are inside parks no one is randomly wondering around the course unless they are playing anymore then someone would be doing so inside a skate park that's located in/at one.

[jdmonin]

The courses near me (North America) make use of the boundaries and underused areas of large parks: Within their forested areas, or large grassy sections which aren't used for other sports or picnics.

The course I rendered in PR #4557's screenshots is typical for my area. Others are entirely in the woods within parks.

I think it's a very similar situation to golf courses, and worthy of differentiated rendering. Courses cover a lot of area, so mapping the course as a large pitch (as in #844) seems awkward. For courses in the woods, the pitch would also overlap that landcover. So my PR renders the details of each hole in the course, at higher zoom levels only to avoid clutter.

Answering point by point:

• World wide spread: Across Europe and North America, with a few elsewhere
  • taginfo: disc_golf key
  • taginfo: leisure=disc_golf_course
  • Wikipedia: Disc golf by country
• Tend to be physically large and distinct
  • Courses typically have 9 or 18 holes, each of which is hundreds of meters/yards long
  • They're distinct and separate from other sport pitches, picnic areas, park shelters/pavilions
• Clear consensus tagging scheme
  • As seen in taginfo stats, the iD presets, and OSM wiki
• Often diligently mapped in a structured way with the details
  • The tagging scheme includes each hole's starting tee, general path (which may bend), and finish basket, optionally with par
  • My PR shows how those details look
  • Taginfo for disc_golf=* shows 3364 holes, 3236 tees, 3096 baskets currently mapped

[imagico]

Answering point by point:

Trying to follow your analysis - i can see the exact opposite on most points:

• the tags seem to be used almost exclusively in the US, central and northern Europe
• the wiki documentation seems to be almost non-existent
• there seems to be conflicting tagging - quite a lot of use of leisure=pitch + sport=disc_golf for example (>300 uses)
• tag use seems to be for a lot of things but i could not find any cases of golf course like dedicated and limited access courses that are only used for the sport. Uses however include in significant numbers:
  • non-multipolygon relations
  • individual 'holes' mapped with nodes, linear ways or polygons and tagged leisure=disc_golf_course
  • lots of public spaces where the disc golf features overlap with normal general purpose infrastructure

Examples:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12583505
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10224469
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2552970
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/227188730
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/993323496
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8906895289
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8569717841
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1341409363

[imagico]

For balance also some samples from the US:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/13828972
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/225827585
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/885616922
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/200456347
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/278098436
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/870835645
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3192369977

I could only find very few cases in OSM in either the US or Europe of disc golf courses tagged this way that are limited access and single purpose use areas like golf courses typically are.

[Adamant36]

lots of public spaces where the disc golf features overlap with normal general purpose infrastructure. I could only find very few cases in OSM in either the US or Europe of disc golf courses tagged this way that are limited access and single purpose use areas like golf courses typically are.

I'm not really sure how the access thing is relevant. They aren't typically going to be mapped like golf courses are because they aren't usually, if ever, on private property or ran by businesses. Which is why I brought up the analogy of skate parks. Maybe a better one would be baseball or soccer fields. A lot of times both overlap, and are in "normal general purpose infrastructure", but they are still sport pitches and both are rendered. Especially soccer fields. A lot of them are just randomly placed in open grassy areas of parks that anyone can wonder through. In the case of disc golf courses there is never an instance where they are going to be fenced off, completely separate areas from anything else because like I said disc golf isn't a business endeavor. Their mainly created by the public on public land.

That doesn't mean they are completely free range areas that have no defined boundaries or whatever though. Like in a few of your examples the pitches Etc. Etc. are extremely well defined areas IRL and can be seen in the satellite images. It's not like there's just a place where someone throws the frisbee, a net at the end, and a bunch of children randomly playing hopscotch in between the two or whatever.

[jdmonin]

From what I can see:

• The sport is played in Europe, US and Canada. Altogether a billion people live in those regions. That's widespread across a good portion of the globe, and the tagging is widespread where the sport is played.
• I linked to the wiki documentation earlier; there was easily enough detail there to guide me when I started mapping disc golf, and enough for the merged iD presets PR.
  • Disc golf
  • Tag:disc_golf=hole
  • Tag:disc_golf=basket
  • Tag:leisure=disc_golf_course
  • etc.
• About the current usage:
  • There have been 2 tagging proposals, so those 300 leisure=pitch + sport=disc_golf aren't a surprise. I'd be fine with also rendering a disc golf icon for leisure=pitch + sport=disc_golf .
  • Since this feature's been discussed for years, the existing tag use will never be perfect; that also reflects all the different people who've tried their best (sometimes unfortunately "tagging for the renderer") to add individual disc golf courses to OSM over the years.
  • Using a non-multipolygon relation to link the holes of a course is suggested in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disc_golf , that's where those are probably coming from.
  • There's also examples of good tagging on the map. Here are holes in Europe and US which are part of courses whose holes, tees, baskets are tagged in detail in the map data:
    • https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1020958275
    • https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/812928881
    • https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/912615529
  • As @Adamant36 says, it's normal to have some overlap between the disc golf course and other infrastructure; if you're zoomed in enough to see the way for the actual holes, they won't normally overlap with other features.

On balance I think the iD presets and wiki are enough to guide mappers to tag consistently, and there's enough good usage out there already to make it worth rendering.

[jeisenbe]

In the Pacific Northwest of the USA (Oregon, Washington and Idaho), there are 50 leisure=disc_golf_course mapped, but most are only a node or a small area with no details.

Only 4 areas have mapping of the linear ways for the disc_golf=hole, in addition to an area:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/978880861#map=18/43.88096/-121.43151

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/605368469#map=17/47.70137/-122.08752 - in this case each hole starts off of another, which creates strange acute angles.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/545157227#map=17/46.98192/-123.82140

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/545157227#map=18/46.98236/-123.82130 - here the area is currently tagged as `leisure=pitch` and the holes curve, unusually.

Nodes for the baskets/tees but no holes:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1037240744#map=17/47.38036/-122.04431

There is one area with several ways for disc_golf=hole but no leisure=disc_golf_course:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/498905755#map=16/44.7912/-117.8364

In one other place case there were only nodes mapped for tees or baskets without the area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8694609950#map=16/47.7496/-122.208

So the vast majority do not include details, and in those that do it will often be confusing to render a way that represents the disc_golf=hole way, because it will not be clear in the context what it means.

[DrOuille9]

Adding an icon is needed for showing a disc golf on the map to people.
Today the mapper is taking time to map a disc golf course, but nothing is shown on the map.
1st, it can be frustrating
2nd, the goal to inform is not achieved, because nothing happens on the map.

I think the basket used in the editor is enough. Many discs manufacturers are using this basket on their main banner, used too on flyers about events, etc. Do this basket is used for another sport ?

Thx for update, it will be welcome ;)

[DrOuille9]

Finally, we have icons for leisure=golf_course and leisure=miniature_golf. Could there be a leisure=disc_golf_course icon for polygons or relations of features?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Ddisc_golf_course has just 381 uses worldwide

Today, we are near 1800
https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#***/leisure/disc_golf_course
May be more in future if mappers see it rendered on the map ;)

[derEremit]

I built a protoype of some overpass query discgolf map
Planet Discgolf

while doing it and mapping various courses I am not quite sure if the current scheme is perfect for rendering holes yes.
For example because there are courses with multiple "layouts" ( different teepads for different skill levels )

That would better be discussed in a topic on openstreetmap forums

But as for rendering on openstreetmap I think.

a: sport=disc_golf should be shown as a POI like it is already done in osmand for example ( or my prototype )
b: disc_golf=basket and disc_golf=tee should be rendered as they are clearly physical objects and I don't see a change about these features for the problems I encountered

[Hufkratzer]

@derEremit: You mean leisure=disc_golf_course instead of sport=disc_golf, don't you? (see Key:sport)

[derEremit]

osmand uses sport=disc_golf

as far as I see it on my map it is the Point that should be close to a parking place ( and maybe a infoboard )
so if you use osmand to filter the poi and then drive to it the routing is to the next possible parking

leisure=disc_golf_course in my opinion should be used to group holes to a course

i just found a recent topic which should probably be used for the discussion about that
osm community

[michaelblyons]

(Non-disc) Golf has different tee locations for different skill levels, too. That doesn't stop it from being rendered.

[natrius]

I would like to add here as well, i expanded the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Ddisc_golf_course site quite a bit. I commented in the community-thread as well.

I hope with this information more correctly mapped courses will get added or existing ones get updated. If thats consistent then, it might be easier to make decision on what gets rendered. The easy way currently would be to render just a leisure=disc_golf_course as its (hopefully) simply a node on the first point or a relation including every hole - there the icon should be in the middle in my opinion.

It should be discussed what should be included or excluded, but for now this would be enough. I personally don't think every feature needs to be rendered (a special map like https://planetdg.com/?dg should cover that) but the course itself should be on the map with the name.

[DrOuille9]

osmand uses sport=disc_golf

as far as I see it on my map it is the Point that should be close to a parking place ( and maybe a infoboard ) so if you use osmand to filter the poi and then drive to it the routing is to the next possible parking

leisure=disc_golf_course in my opinion should be used to group holes to a course

i just found a recent topic which should probably be used for the discussion about that osm community

Thx for this map !
But I think you "only" use POI with "leisure=disc_golf_course" ?
Because I see some courses not shown on your map... may be useful to use the area too ? I've mapped some courses with area tool ;)

Sorry to use this thread to speak about another thing.