Replies: 32 comments 34 replies
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Hello! This project sounds incredibly cool, and looking forward to seeing and hopefully helping, in its progress. I'd like to help anywhere I can, I have little CL experience, but do enjoy scheme quite a bit, so I'm hoping to add to my toolbelt. |
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Hi, I'm Michael Reis. I have been hacking on CL for a few years now. Starting to get the hang of it. Not much experience with 3d but I'd like to learn. Most recently I've been learning Cryptanalysis, which has been a fun challenge. Not sure where I can help but I like discussing things and debugging, so hollar at me if you need a hand. |
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My name is Andrew Wolven. I too am interested in 3D graphics with Common
Lisp, and I too got my inspiration from Symbolics Lisp Machines, although I
didn't get started until 1997. It has been my dream to see a CAD system
written mostly entirely in Common Lisp in my lifetime. I started my career
in CAD with AutoCAD, and then learned AutoLisp, and, after seeing the
Symbolics Lisp Machine, realized that Lisp should not just be an extension
language to a CAD system, but the primary implementation language.
In 2017 I moved into a situation where I was financially stable enough to
spend 30 to 40 hours a week on development. Since January of 2018 I have
created several libraries to move me along in this direction:
- CL-Vulkan ***@***.***:awolven/cl-vulkan.git
Bindings to get vulkan working with common lisp.
- VkTk ***@***.***:awolven/VkTk.git
An extension to CL-Vulkan that brings windows, text and widgets to a 3d
graphics language via the "Dear ImGui" library.
- OC ***@***.***:awolven/oc.git
Bindings to make the solid modeler OpenCascade accessible to common lisp.
- Adhoc ***@***.***:awolven/adhoc.git
An object system extension which gives CLOS the ability to do generative
Knowledge-Based Engineering, like with Icad.
I currently have not released the CAD system itself yet, which is called
"Regen" but I plan on doing so soon. Regen is a combination of numerical
constraint-based programming and logical rule-based programming to create
fully parametric 2d and 3d representations of physical objects.
As a feature of Regen, I have ported the CMUCL text editor "Hemlock" to
VkTk, for a multithreaded environment. This should be ready for release in
about two months.
The technical basis is the same between an animation system and a CAD
system, so I hope to adopt this project as the underpinnings for the CAD
system for a stronger overall common lisp experience.
Regards,
Andrew Wolven
…On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 11:17 AM mtreis86 ***@***.***> wrote:
Hi,
I'm Michael Reis. I have been hacking on CL for a few years now. Starting
to get the hang of it. Not much experience with 3d but I'd like to learn.
Most recently I've been learning Cryptanalysis, which has been a fun
challenge.
Not sure where I can help but I like discussing things and debugging, so
hollar at me if you need a hand.
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I'm Kai and I have some experience with LISP and functional programming but I'm still a beginner. But I have a degree in mathematics with an emphasis on mathematical physics. So I'm very familiar with the mathematics of geometry. This project will be a great way to strengthen my functional programming and really understand LISP in addition to learning to apply my mathematical understanding of geometry to an engineering project. A little background. I grew up on computers starting in the mid-90's and I wanted to work in SIlicon Valley during the halcyon days of the 90's. But the dot-com bubble happened just as I graduated and my interests went elsewhere as I went in to college. But I've since returned to the world of computers and much like Kaveh, this is an attempt to capture my youth in the same sense as him. I have a romantic longing for the LISP hacker era of computers and wished to be a part of that. This is my chance to get a taste of that world and I'm very excited for it! |
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Hello everyone, The thing that got me into programming in the first place was my Graphics background. I work as a Motion graphics artist using 2D (After Effects) and 3D (Blender, Cinema 4D), but when I discovered Houdidni and the concept of Procedural workflow I got addicted, and that got me interested in programming in general and I learnt to work with Game Engines (UE4 (blueprints and C++, unity,... Godot) to produce some interactive experiences. The thing that got me into Lisps in general was watching the MIT course Structure and Interpretation less that a year ago. It blew my mind and decided to study Lisp(s) since then. I feel that this is the language and paradigm that I want to work with on a daily basis and hope I can contribute to make it more adopted. I am so excited to be here, please let me know if there's any resources (or Topics) that I need to study so I can be of more value to this project. I'm almost done with the "Practical Common Lisp" Book. |
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Hi Kaveh & all, I'm a long-time on-and-off-again Lisp hacker and in recent times I've been looking for a Lisp-driven workflow for tasks like:
I tried a few approaches last year. One was using the CLIM API to visualize data via Emacs (McCLIM/McCLIM#1193) but I didn't really get along with CLIM. Another is driving Blender from Lisp but I've struggled with that mostly due to low performance and poor documentation of the Python API. I've put these ambitions to the side for the moment but I'll come back to it with gusto sooner or later. Anyway: This project looks really promising for a "Lisp-native" workflow for all of those things. It seems from your demo like you already have a lot of what I'd need since I'm mostly interested in the modelling and animating - I would be fine with kicking out to Blender for rendering and "spit and polish." Following with great interest but lurking for the foreseeable future due to other commitments :) P.S. I love your style of presenting the project and your whole approach. I hope to see more such projects from later-career Lisp hackers with a lot of experience in some interesting domain. |
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Hello folks, I'm Robert. Professionally, I run a team building quantum computing software (much of which is in Common Lisp). Personally, I like writing mathy code, especially high-performance numeric, algebraic, and symbolic code (linear algebra, group theory, number theory, etc.). In a previous life, at a young startup, I professionally wrote discrete differential geometry code in Common Lisp with OpenGL visualization in LispWorks' CAPI. I mostly was experimenting with functions on the curvature tensor to do LOD-type simplifications of general triangular meshes. Excited to see where this project goes and help out where I can. |
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Hi folks, I wanted to learn more about 2d/3d programming and I've been playing around with CEPL and watching Chris Bagger's videos (which are great). I was kind of bummed though because it seems he's moved on and the project feels archived. I was really excited to see Kaveh start this project and produce his great video content. I hope to help this project however I can and to learn as much 2d/3d in the interactive lisp environment as I can. |
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Hi everyone, My name is Kayo. I'm a web application developer. Years ago I developed an It has been a while since I worked with 3D graphics but would love to get back I have enjoyed playing around with ELisp, Scheme, Racket and ClojureScript. I'm Have always wanted to get involved with a project like this and am excited to be |
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My name is Michaël Le Barbier, a mathematician and programmer. As a mathematician I am interested in algebraic geometry and group theory and also quantitative finance. As a programmer I enjoy programming Lisp and OCaml but also know and use a hand of other computer languages. I'm also an infrastructure expert and works as such at ThoughtWorks. I also previously worked as a math researcher, a quantitive programmer, and a math teacher. Regarding the project I'm interested in everything I guess, excited at 3D animation. I would enjoy develop on physics motion, constraints, or flow dynamics. I also love to make development processes in teams simple and reliable. WWW: https://www.melusina.org |
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Hi, I'm Johannes. I'm not really a programmer, more of a designer. Though I've been attempting programming ever since a young child always disappointed with the available api, the syntax, and the limitations, I kept thinking there must be something better (and part of me felt I remembered there was) out there. With my memory in hand of what a system should be like I set out to find a language to code the language to code the system. And that's when I discovered CL about 12 years ago, which was very similar to the language I had in mind. Hilarity constantly ensues as I try to use CL like my language. The last decade has been one constant struggle of trying to get the basic building blocks into lisp for being something besides text only and usually having some disaster happen as I try. The first thing I did was add much needed modern extensions to CLX only to have the hd crash and I become homeless. I managed to upload what I could recover or older versions. You can thank me for the double buffering nobody uses, and the ability to rotate and change resolutions. CLX is limited in what modern extensions it can use because of its architecture. I've given up, at least without financial incentive, that avenue. So I've got generic libraries to abstract over different surfaces, e.g., x11-window, framebuffer, stream,raster, to draw raster graphics, to render vector graphics and svg paths, keybinding(either x11 or my ioctl interface to evdev[independent mice and pointers and multitouch, yay!].) A simple struct UI elements implementation with a corresponding generic UI library for interaction, e.g. (gui:on-click object fn args)(gui:width button), and rendering based on themable styles(still trying to figure out how to allow one app to have different rendering without the programmer having to subclass the ui elements). Just about to release my generic font interface for feedback as soon as the documentation is done. (supports ttf right now, partial pcf to be finished, AFM/PFA/PFB later this year when I get back to finishing Type 1 support, and BFD when I change the font structure to match my 'realized' fonts.) Colour library for representation, generic interaction, transformation and comparison. Palette library with import from several scientific palette formats. So I sit atop a bunch of libraries in various states of completion and I still haven't got to work on what I'm really interested in which is art. ...or at least creating art programs. I have plans on a vector drawing app and a painting app with programmable brushes. I've had some experience creating brushes https://imgur.com/gallery/jEyVqUu to mimic real ones. I'm hoping this project can bring some much needed attention to a foundational layer for graphics and input under CL. And while my focus has mainly been on 2d, it's only because it's what 3d is built on. 3d has been on my todo list since the first time i played with 3DS on a 386. |
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I looked at it years ago, might not be a bad thing to look at it with fresh eyes. |
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Had a quick look at the ccl ide, which apparently seems to be a mutilated hemlock full of ffi stuff and very dependent on ns stuff. |
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I do think CLUE can eventually be usable, especially the CLIO part. |
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If you're looking to have an ide, I'll be releasing soon a "mutilated"
hemlock which only depends on a few bits of functionality in a c++ library
which is providing fonts and windows. It's currently using vulkan, but it
is completely independent of vulkan and could be used with opengl or
metal. Most of the "mutilation" has been to make Hemlock thread-safe.
…On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 10:32 AM Johannes Martinez Calzada < ***@***.***> wrote:
Had a quick look at the ccl ide, which apparently seems to be a mutilated
hemlock full of ffi stuff and very dependent on ns stuff.
That wouldn't be easy, well except the cg file in macui, I could replace
all that today. But the rest wouldn't be easy as there's no real structure
besides poking into objc stuff. Clue would probably be similar, tied into
clx without a higher level abstraction.
I'll take a look, but not something I'd look forward to. I wrote my
prototype view interface years ago severely tied to clx and I'm still
ripping out and abstracting stuff.
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Well I wouldn't mind looking at the code and maybe mutilating it some more :) |
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looks like glfw is useless for my use case, and any use case that is not a 3d application. And if 3d UI is what is wanted for this project then maybe something like Alloy should be considered? glfw doesn't allow any way to access the window object directly. If I grab the window from my wm I can resize and move it, but can't draw to it all. |
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I really know nothing about Clue. (I have no Clue.) What are its major
features that distinguish it from typical libraries?
…On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 11:07 AM s-milberger ***@***.***> wrote:
Thanks for having a look and your comments. I still have hope for Clue as
a UI in a graphics system, SGI's Open Inventor API had a UI toolkit built
on Xt, and Coin3D added Qt and Win implementations. I talked a little with
the CCL devs, and they said they tried GNUstep, but it never quite worked
and was a bear to maintain--so "porting" CCL to X-windows probably wouldn't
be the best use of time.
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not really xt, but clos objects that function like some xt objects. |
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Basically, my version of Hemlock is designed to use a constant-refresh
graphics layer, as opposed to an incremental-refresh graphics layer. By
constant refresh, I mean the display substrate is constantly presenting
framebuffers to display whether or not the application explicitly asks for
a refresh (conducive to animation), where an incremental-refresh system
such as X repaints rectangles on the display as the application asks for it
to do so.
DirectX, OpenGL, Vulkan and Metal are all constant refresh graphics layers.
X, Win32, and to the best of my knowledge Cocoa are all incremental refresh
graphics layers.
The choice of which type of display library to use for a 3d application
depends on how integrated you want your ui library to be with the 3d
graphics. Suppose you wanted to draw text on a quad in a non-orthogonal
coordinate system, or if you want elements of your ui to have
transparency. Then you need to implement your UI in the constant refresh
graphics layer directly, using the same "compositor" as the rest of the 3d
graphics system. If you don't want this, and you want your text to come up
in rectangular boxes, instead of with transparent backgrounds, you can use
an incremental refresh display layer, and your 2d will always have a
different compositor.
My version of Hemlock separates the input/processing loop and the display
loop into different threads, hence the need for thread safety. Hemlock
"requests" a display update by telling the render loop to recompute the ui
image through a queue. Constant refresh systems generally use more energy
and processor time than incremental refresh graphics layers, but generally
this is ok on a multicore system. Normal performance issues aside the
responsiveness of your constant refresh ui will depend on the frame rate.
…On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 11:32 AM Johannes Martinez Calzada < ***@***.***> wrote:
Well I wouldn't mind looking at the code and maybe mutilating it some more
:)
I still can't get glfw to give me a window, so I'm still not sure if I can
use it for 2d stuff or it will always be opengl/vulkan?
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my thinking is 3d should be used for 3d. There's a lot of ui stuff outside of the render window in 3d apps that really don't need to be putting a burden on the gpu. It's something that can limit your entry barrier, at least for those of us with old laptops. |
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I am thinking of basing the GUI on a design like the Glamorous Toolkit, which is based on Smalltalk. Each GUI panel will be a customizable inspector window for the current selection. For this, I imagine being able to embed an editor window to represent and edit the code view of the objects. The editor would be connected to slime so that the user can directly modify and evaluate code in it and see the results in the 3D views. In fact all the UI, including 3D views and the like, will be implemented as such inspector windows. This may mean that it would be better if all the GUI used the same compositor as the 3D scene. |
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In a sense everything does use the same compositor, the display server one, whichever way you go. |
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I started a new thread about the GUI design here. |
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sounds good
…On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 12:37 PM Kaveh Kardan ***@***.***> wrote:
I am thinking of basing the GUI on a design like the Glamorous Toolkit
<https://gtoolkit.com>, which is based on Smalltalk.
Each GUI panel will be an extensive customizable inspector window for the
current selection. For this, I imagine being able to embed an editor window
to represent and edit the code view of the objects. The editor of you would
be connected to slime so that the user can directly modify and evaluate
code in it and see the results in the 3D views.
In fact 3D views and the like will also be implemented as such inspector
windows. This may mean that it would be better if all the GUI used the same
compositor has the 3D scene.
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sounds great, colin!
…On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 5:02 PM loskool ***@***.***> wrote:
Hey all, I'm colin.
I'm a high school dropout who got a degree in math in the mid 2000s. My
senior thesis was in algebraic geometry but I was always more interested in
topics in theoretical computer science that were not on offer at my
university. I've been bouncing around US locales and occupations for the
last 15 years or so, working mostly as a freelance software developer.
I am working on two different games in CL. The first is a roguelike where
you cast spells by composing them in a spellcasting language (basically a
kind of ad-hoc database language) to get through the dungeon. That game is
MOP-heavy, the grammar for the language is actually embedded in the slots
for each of the objects that make up the game. It's a half-baked idea but I
was just curious to push the metaclass customization to the limit.
The other game is less experimental: it s a simulation of the experience
of being a modern day trainhopper (a subculture that I have been
tangentially involved with in the past), and is still in its very early
stages.
As far as my interests in this project are concerned:
I have this dream of making a natural language interface to a motion
graphics design system. The unachievable ideal that would serve as a north
star would be something like the holodec from Star Trek. I know just a
little about graphics programming, but I have been learning and lack only a
good excuse to learn more! I have a somewhat peculiar fascination with the
introductory credits sequences of TV series and I'd like to be able to make
such things using Common Lisp.
I only have access to machines that run Linux at the moment, so the
SBCL/Linux port of kons-9 is of great interest to me.
Professionally, I've done webdev (both frontend and backend) in Python,
Haskell, JS, Elm. And I have done some game dev for the web and for mobile
phones in Haxe and JS. I've also done some nebulous data-monkey stuff
Python.
Common Lisp has been my main squeeze for the last 5 years, having returned
to it after a 10 year estrangement, out in the world of freelance work.
I'm in between web sites right now, but my friends and I are trying to get
a "tilde site community" going. My webspace there is
https://cicadas.surf/~colin
Exactly one of my Common Lisp projects is actually available through
quicklisp: https://quickdocs.org/gtwiwtg
I'm pretty sure nobody uses gtwiwtg for anything, but another Lisper
requested that it be included in quicklisp, and so I obliged.
[An Aside: The GH account referenced on quickdocs doesn't exist any more
because I was trying to escape from github. I guess, however, that network
effects are pretty hard to disentangle from. Hence, I started this account
as soon as I needed to complain to maintainers 😉 For the curious, I'm
slowly moving my old Common Lisp code to https://cicadas.surf/cgit/colin ]
Cheers!
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My name is Jerry Vinokurov. My academic background is in physics and as a software engineer I've worked in a bunch of different areas, including government, research, and startups. Currently most of my work is about optimizing parallel computations on large geophysical datasets using dask, but over a decade ago I spent a good 5 years programming in CL while working in a lab at CMU where there was a large Lisp codebase. During that time I wrote some geometry code that you can find here: https://github.com/grapesmoker/cl-geom, and for a long time I've had a dream of 3D/CAD applications natively written in Lisp. I'd love to help out with this project! It seems like a lot of other people are also quite excited about it, which is great. |
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I'm mikel evins. I currently subcontract for a federal (U.S.) contractor that develops and markets technologies in response to federal requests (mostly "Small Business Innovation Research", or SBIR proposals). My job is usually to to take a proposal that some agency thinks maybe could be done and turn it into a live demonstration of working software that exhibits the properties the agency wants. I do most of this work with Allegro Common Lisp, usually on Windows and Linux, occasionally on macOS. I've been writing Lisp code to pay the rent since 1988, with periodic interruptions. On January 1st of that year I went to work for Apple Computer, initially for the Developer Technical Publications Group as a writer. Apple at that time was paradise for an autodidact interested in programming. They had a technical library where, if you couldn't find a book you wanted, they would order two and give you one. They had a software library where you could check out current software title for indefinite use. They had a competitive library where you could sign up for time on computing machinery ranging from IBM PCs to Xerox Stars to Apple's Cray Y-MP. I learned GNU Emacs and Portable Standard Lisp on the Cray. I came in interested in basically every programming language that had not been available to me on my Commodore 128. Common Lisp is what stuck. Before 1988 was over, I was writing most of my hobby projects with Coral Common Lisp. I stayed at Apple for ten years, with a year out in the middle to work at NeXT and at a small media startup. At Apple I worked on a bunch of things in Lisp:
I left Apple to go to a startup named Reactivity, one of whose founders was one of the SK8 engineers and a good personal friend. I stayed there for seven years and wrote a bunch more stuff in Lisp, including:
Late in 2004 I got very sick with what turned out to be Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. It took about two years to get a diagnosis, and several more to work out how to adapt so that I could lead a near-normal life again. When I started looking for work again, Clozure Associates hired me and I did more work on and around Clozure Common Lisp, and on some of Clozure's other ventures, including the line of educational iPhone games that they developed and spun out into the company LearningTouch. Since then, I've mainly worked as an independent contractor. As often as possible, I've worked in Lisp, though, like other Lispers, I've also needed to know how to work on other languages. I've been paid to write code in C, C++, Objective-C, Java, Javascript, Scheme, Ocaml, Prolog, Python, Ruby, Scala, Haskell, and probably several others I'm forgetting. Lisp is my home, though. I've continued working on bard, and I've even shipped some products built with it. I've had a Mac app on the App Store for ten years that I wrote mostly in Scheme, with windows and menus in Objective-C. I have a collection of github repos at https://github.com/mikelevins. My most popular repo is folio2, a library of support for functional-programming idioms based on bard, and built around FSet and SERIES. I built a prototype of an immersive 3D multiplayer game called the Fabric, using the Kawa Scheme compiler and jMonkeyEngine. Kawa's author presented it at JavaOne in 2015. You can see a QuickTime movie of building a new character and traveling around the solar system a bit here (about 220MB): https://evins.net/downloads/TheFabric-Ribbon.mov I stopped work on the Fabric because I really wanted to be working in Common Lisp. If we get kons-9 working well enough, perhaps my dream can come true! |
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for the longest time I though you were mike levins. I should probably read peoples bios more than just surfing their repositories. |
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No worries; that's the more likely way to parse it. Many people interpret it that way. You can blame my father for the odd spelling of my first name, which is really just the same as "Michael". My father inherited the odd spelling of our last name honestly. It's a variant of "Nevins" and "Niven". So my name is pronounced like "Michael Evans". Or, if you prefer, "Mike Elevens." I usually write it in all lower case just because I noticed when I was a teenager that I liked the way it looked better. I don't actually care whether anyone else does that--except that when I worked for the Newton Group at Apple, my manager, Donna Auguste, ordered my office nameplate in all lower case because she had noticed that I wrote it that way. I though that was a nice gesture. |
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Hi folks, I am Richard Dare, a self taught programmer from the UK. I learned to code on the Amiga, and I'm an 80s-90s bedroom programmer at heart. I work in Java web development mostly on business apps, but I've shipped C++ games on my own for the iPhone and older smartphones, doing my own art and music. I have a longstanding interest in computer graphics and creative computing in general, though I'm not much of a mathematician. Also, long ago I wrote some popular articles on game design and had them collected in a book. I got into Common Lisp a few years ago, from two different directions. Firstly, as a web developer I had started using Chrome Dev Tools as a kind of cave man REPL. I had a blank HTML file saved on my desktop that loaded a few JS libraries. I'd open it, open Dev Tools and hack away. I had JS "macros" to generate Java boilerplate, and wrote all kinds of quick, throwaway programs to solve problems at work. Through this, I discovered that I really liked interactive development, and writing code that wrote code for me. I didn't know much about Lisp at this time, I just knew I liked to work this way. Then, through my interest in retro computing and emulation, I tried out that leaked Linux emulation of Symbolics Genera, which blew me away. It was like I'd stumbled upon a crashed UFO. It inspired me enormously. At the moment, I mostly use Lisp for small personal programs so I'm interested in learning more from experienced people, and seeing how a substantial app gets made. Also, I have my own Genera-inspired project I am working on (nothing to see yet!), so maybe we have some shared interests. I hope I can help out in some way, testing and bug-hunting on Windows at the very least. |
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Great! Welcome aboard! If you want a Windows thing to do, you might look at the sbcl-win64-tests branch and the doc/run-sbcl-win64.md document and tell me whether you can run the code in test/demo-kernel.lisp after reading the doc. When you get stuck, you can tell me where you get stuck and together we can fix the doc. Also, you can offer opinions about how to make it convenient on Windows to help sbcl find the glfw DLL without hardcoding the path to it in the kons-9.asd file. |
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Thanks, I'll take a look at that branch |
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Hello, my name is Sorin. I am a design engineer, currently working on a master's thesis in robotics. The subject of my thesis is topology optimization. I have been using Lisp/Scheme/Racket for small personal projects for the past couple of years. To me Lisp is the simplest language to work with. As Kaveh said in one of his blogposts, Lisp feels like the only language that does not fight you. Reading Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs blew my mind. I don't have much experience on the programming side of computer graphics, but I have been using CAD programs for 8 years now and sometimes I write small scripts in Python using NXOpen at my day job to automate some of my tasks in Siemens NX. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HI8FerKr6Q After watching the above video based on the works of Neri Oxman, I got interested in generative design and algorithmic modelling. I thought that the best tool for this kind of work would be a system written in Lisp, hacking in the REPL and seeing how the geometry changes. I stumbled upon this project on HackerNews and it peeked my interest. I downloaded the code and for the past hour I have been playing with it, having a lot of fun in the process. I hope this will grow in a fully fledged program for 3D graphics. Maybe I will be able to contribute to this project in the future. |
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Welcome. I added your video link to the discussion below. If you find out more about the details of the code, or have other examples, please add them here: |
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My name is Jacek. I am a self-taught programmer, and like Richard, I have learned to code on Amiga. I do not have an academic background. Something similar to high school is the highest level of education I got. But I am a curious man, and exploring various ideas has guided me to Emacs Lisp and SBCL. At work, I code Ruby and Java, but for relaxing programming, I often use SBCL. I can model in Blender, and with some effort, I can create a simple animation, but I do not consider myself a 3D artist. I have experimented with using Lisp to draw simple diagrams. |
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Hi all, I'm Stefan. I'm a software developer / architect / company owner. I'm nowadays doing mostly Java in an enterprise setup working with CAD and PDM systems. My first computer was a VIC 20, then the "usual" progression to a C64, Amiga, PC. I've been into computer graphics since my youth -- even bought "the bible" ("Computer Graphics -- principles and practice") new as a teenager. I ordered it by mail, and it cost me a fortune. I had very fun times in school implementing a ray tracer in Turbo Pascal. I'm trying to get into lisp and CG again to rejuvenate the fun I had back then implementing all the little graphics hacks from scientific American articles. "Grumpy old developer" is probably the best way to describe me. As for lisp, I'm very much a noob. I'm using SBCL on MacOS and linux. |
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As a fellow grumpy old developer, allow me to welcome you. This project is excellent for rejuvenation in Lisp and CG. :) |
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This thread reminds me fondly of this short video presentation about how a movement is started, "Leadership lessons from dancing guy." I think you are doing a great job with the welcoming environment @kaveh808. |
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Thank you. I remember seeing that video years ago (without the commentary). :) |
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All this stuff that's going on with the project is advanced and beyond my level of understanding. How do I contribute and get myself up to speed? |
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Hi Kai, I went over your introduction and saw you had experience with geometry and math. One small function you could get your feet wet with is implementing a 3-point arc curve. See the bottom of If you want to do that, I'll make an issue. |
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Yes, that would be a great start for me. Thanks! |
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Excellent. I made issue #144 for this. Let me know if you have any questions. |
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Hey all, I'm Nick. I'm currently working as a graphics engineer in the game industry. I learned to program in Haskell and Scala when I started college (that was about 4 years ago), and have been doing it pretty much daily ever since. I sadly moved away from functional languages as I got more interested in writing renderers (you tend to write in C++ (and shading languages that look like C++) for real time GPU stuff in my experience), but I've never lost my fondness for the paradigm. I'm new to Lisp, but I'm excited by this project. I really like the idea of an interactive, extensible creation environment for graphics, as most of the time it seems like tools in this field are just so rigid. I'm also intrigued by the use of a dynamic language without resorting to slow options like Python; I think it lowers the barrier to entry while still having the potential to be performant. If there's work to be done with the 3D APIs here, and you're unsatisfied with the GL fixed function pipeline, I'd be happy to pitch in, and to try my hand at anything else that needs doing. |
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Welcome to kons-9, Nick. And great work tracking down that pesky OpenGL bug. Andrew (@awolven) is currently developing a CL Vulkan rendering engine which we plan to migrate to. There is much work to be done, including 3D interaction utilities (picking and manipulators). I am also keen on building a GPU-powered renderer, possibly based on ray tracing. Don't know if that would be of interest to you. Glad to have you as part of the team. |
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An RT renderer would be very intriguing. I haven't had much chance to play with the RT APIs, but once we switch to Vulkan/Metal there's no reason we couldn't start to experiment with this using their APIs. |
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Hi Nick!
If you want to take a look at the vulkan graphics engine, it's at
https://github.com/awolven/krma
…On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 3:07 PM Kaveh Kardan ***@***.***> wrote:
Welcome to kons-9, Nick. And great work tracking down that pesky OpenGL
bug.
Andrew ***@***.*** <https://github.com/awolven>) is currently developing a
CL Vulkan rendering engine which we plan to migrate to. There is much work
to be done, including 3D interaction utilities (picking and manipulators).
I am also keen on building a GPU-powered renderer, possibly based on ray
tracing. Don't know if that would be of interest to you.
Glad to have you as part of the team.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<#8 (reply in thread)>,
or unsubscribe
<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AABGMMJLBM3FBZUH42LSWV3WFLOGNANCNFSM56GNBOHA>
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
***@***.***>
|
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Hi everyone! I am Vishal Lama, a backend software developer, mostly using Scala and ZIO for my day job, with some Python thrown in the mix. I got interested in "live coding" when I learned some Smalltalk (Pharo) some time ago, and I was blown away by the live-IDE experience. I had a similar experience with Common Lisp (CL) in a more functional setting in the recent past, and over the past few months I've been slowly working my way through the CL idioms as a beginner. This has also opened my eyes to "classical" AI problems that Lisp was very good at solving in the past, and using CL while poring through Peter Novig's book on Artificial Intelligence (one of the older editions) has been a very enjoyable experience. I don't have any graphics knowledge whatsoever, and I am here to learn everything I can. My CL setup consists of Portacle, that's all! |
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Welcome. Feel free to try out the system by running the demos is |
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William Adams, a former graphic designer/typographer who runs a CNC machine when I'm not working at my day job or doing off-site remote tech support for a CNC company. I'd love for this to have .stl export, and to work up a way to have it simulate the cutting action of a CNC and write out a G-code file to make the simulated cut --- been working on that in OpenSCAD/RapCAD, but Lisp was one of the languages which "clicked" for me when I was in college, so glad of a chance to use it for a project I've been working on for a while now. |
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Welcome, William. I had a look and an ASCII STL file looks straightforward. Just a series of triangles, apparently. G-code seems a lot more involved. Do keep in mind that kons-9 currently only supports polygonal geometry. I will implement STL export for you to test. |
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Thanks! Looking forward to the STL export. As I noted on Reddit, the G-code stuff would best be left to individual users/projects (belike I'm the only person who is really interested in it) --- I'll hoe this row once I figure out how to write out a text file in the course of making a model by subtracting tool shapes/paths from a piece of stock. |
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Interesting domain if anyone is interested in building such a thing on top of kons-9. CNC is something I am not familiar with. |
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Thanks! I'm trying to approach things in a rather odd way due to some unusual constraints:
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Hi there kons-9ers :) I'm Théo Tyburn. I'm a Mathematics student and I work as a software developer for the Geometry Research Group at Technical University Berlin. We experiment quite a bit there with datastructures for discrete geometric objects (mostly manifolds like 2D surfaces, and 3D coordinates systems) and object-oriented models for projective geometric spaces (hyperbolic, Moebius, Laguerre and Lie geometries). We use python and Blender as a visualization backend - which is nice for rendering but not so nice for interaction. Go check out the project if you are interested (it's free/GPL license): pyddg. I have also been experimenting with OpenGL in C as a side project over the last few years. I recently asked myself how I could use (any) Lisp to experiment with rendering and general GPU computing pipelines more interactively. That's actually how I came across kons-9 while I was looking for existing projects exploring this direction. I actually would like to be able to redefine the draw function in the rendering loop (in kons-9 it is called I'm not sure if this is not a bit too "low level", but since kons-9 seems to have the goal to offer a lot of flexibility (a bit like becoming the Emacs of 3D software) I thought this might be an interesting hacking field to open. I know there are discussions around the choice of a rendering engine and some quite promising directions. Though I didn't see a general discussion about building an (on the fly) hackable rendering engine. I think this would be quite amazing and allow for crazy and awesome experiments. It would probably be nice to allow for different and custom rendering engines anyway, so that people can choose from a list of default, hack an existing on of build a new one, depending on the purposes. I also feel like it would be an interesting way of sharing and learning GPU techniques, since people could easily play and experiment with the code. Anyway that's already enough for my introduction and what brought me here ;) I would be very happy to help developing things in the directions I mentioned since I was going to do it on my own anyway, but having a community and an existing code base is even better! I'm also happy to help with improving docs, tests and examples as I learn to go around with kons-9. The languages I feel comfortable with are Python, C, ELisp, Guile (Scheme). CL is still a bit clumsy. I run kons-9 using guix as a package manager. PS: we can start a conversation regarding this rendering engine things to go further if some interest is there. |
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Hello and welcome to kons-9. Your ideas on opening up the rendering pipeline sound good. I would be happy to bring the flexibility of CL to GPU techniques. The cons-9 renderer is currently very basic OpenGL. Basically v1.1. There is an effort to move over to Vulkan, but I do want to keep the OpenGL version around as an option. I find it practical for doing things like drawing wireframes and the like. Please feel free to start a discussion here on what you would like to tackle. An initial step might be to optimize the rendering using OpenGL array calls. |
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Thanks for the welcoming words! I'll start some discussions |
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Hi Théo and list, We have a few kons-9 related interests in common. It looks like pyddg supports differential geometry, is that something you would like to explore with kons-9? I've had "Functional Differential Geometry" by Sussman/Wisdom on my bookshelf for years unread. I'm not sure if there is a Scmutils port to CL, I used that for the SICM book and there are Julia and Clojure ports and it's used in FDG. I'm looking at seeing if I can get kons-9 running on CCL, it seems to have been at one point. I'm still trying to get CCL installed on a spare (old) Mac. I'm also an OpenGL holdout over Vulkan, so it looks like from past discussion I might have to maintain a fork of that someday too. :) Mel |
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Hi Mel, True there is this Functional Diff Geo book. Never read it either, but I should, I bet its full of treasures like SICP is. Thanks for reminding me It would be nice indeed to have some differential geometric functionals on our meshes (we basicaly already have the ones computing normals and center of faces for polyhedrons). We could then use them to do some geometry processing. But that would involve thinking about our surface datastructure(s). I just had a quick look, basically we have an Indexed Face Set right now. For some algorithms it is better to operate on a mesh as a graph (implying storing local adjencecies), rather than as a list of points and faces (which is a more global approach). But a simpler thing that would be easy to add is a parametrized surface class. That's always nice to have. Let me know if there is an interest. I also like that there already is a whole collection of SDFs, I find it very fun for modeling. |
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At this point, maybe you could pick a couple of the more important ideas you want to talk about and start a one or two separate, more narrow, discussions (there might even be one started). The repo management doesn't seem to be around (I hope they are enjoying their weekend and agree with this idea), but you have a number of interesting topics, and it might help us to keep track. SDF modeling is an interesting area. It looks like kons-9 has marching cubes rendering, but not manifold dual contouring. ML rendering representations like DeepSDF are getting more important too--there's a bunch of that kind of stuff here: https://github.com/vsitzmann If you start a discussion, we can continue there. Thanks! |
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The system does have some simple classes for handling geometric topology: The uv-mesh class is meant, as you say, for basic polygonal sweeps and extrusions. A proper parametric surface class would be a nice addition. SDF's are also an interesting area, especially if we can render them directly rather than using marching cubes. Lots of possibilities... |
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I actually don't know much about the techniques to convert SDFs to meshes. But this looks like a very interesting field, thanks for the link Mel. I know a bit more about ray marching an SDF though since I played a bit on shadertoy. I was also thinking that it would be nice to have it in kons-9, but I thought it would be too specific. Happy to hear there is an interest. I could try to implement that once I have a grip on the rendering pipeline |
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and others
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Greetings all,
I'm starting this discussion so we can all introduce ourselves as we join the project. Maybe start building a sense of community.
I guess I'll go first. My name is Kaveh Kardan, and I'm in old time Common Lisp and 3D graphics programmer. You can find out some more about me and the genesis of this project at my blog: kaveh808.medium.com Also a lot of random and scattered musings.
I got my start in 3D graphics on Symbolics Lisp Machines at the MIT Media lab in the 80s. I then worked for a long time in the industry, programming C/C++ on SGI machines mostly.
It has been my dream since those MIT days to write my own 3D system in Common Lisp and recapture some of that magic, and maybe some of my youth. So since I'm not getting any younger, I decided to pull the trigger on this project and have a go at it. I hope that if you join me, you enjoy the journey.
Since this is my first time attempting an open source project and managing a remote team, I beg your indulgence in advance and thank you for your patience as I figure things out.
Let's have some fun and do some creative work together.
Please add to this discussion with an intro about yourself and the kind of things you're interested in doing on this project. And of course your ideas!
Kaveh
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