Please submit xterm-kitty terminfo to ncurses database

[z0rc]

As kitty introduced its own terminfo, running ssh from it is getting quite difficult because this terminfo isn't widely available. I'm aware about kitty +kitten ssh solution, but it isn't suitable when you have big amount of remote servers that constantly changing or running automation like Ansible or Kitchen.

Ad-hock solution with compiling terminfo on remote server works, but long-term solution would be submitting xterm-kitty to ncurses. After inclusion this would be automatically picked up by all Linux distributions in some time. Wide adoption would take years, but it's right approach. tmux, st and multiple other terminal emulators went this way. Of course this would require to make xterm-kitty a stable interface, and don't change it frequently.

ncurses accepts contributions in quite old way and doesn't use vcs of any sorts. In order to submit terminfo, please reach out developer as instructed at https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses.faq.html#report_bugs. More info on terminfo database at https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/#download_database.

[kovidgoyal]

In my experience ncurses upstream is not very responsive (or maybe they just dont like me :). As far as I know most distros already package kitty. If they follow the kitty packaging guidelines they should have a separate kitty-terminfo package which you can simply install on your servers. If not bug your distro kitty package maintainer to create such a package. Alternately if you use ansible/puppet/whatever simply create a rule in them into install the kitty terminfo file into /usr/share/terminfo or ~/.terminfo

That said feel free to try to get the kitty terminfo file included in ncurses, maybe they will listen to you. I will be happy to provide any help/support needed.

[z0rc]

Missing xterm-kitty in ncurses is a show stopper for me. If xterm-kitty is included in ncurses it's safe to assume that it's available everywhere, just like bash is available everywhere. Otherwise, imagine a team of 10 developers and hundred of various server roles, no way that change that satisfies some desktop quirks of single developer would be accepted across the whole infrastructure.

That said I'll reach out ncurses upstream and we'll see, how it goes.

[maximbaz]

Just curious, why kitty +kitten ssh is not suitable for when you have big amount of remote servers? It seems to work fine for me, I simply aliased that command to ssh and forgot about this issue altogether.

[z0rc]

@maximbaz because Ansible, Kitchen and probably other tools, that exec ssh directly, despite your shell configured aliases.

Second issue comes up, when you do kitty +kitten ssh to remote server under one user, then do sudo -i to login as root for example, and get the same issue with missing terminfo again.

Probably there are some other similar cases, that haven't stumbled upon while evaluated kitty. But general unavailability of xterm-kitty requires to much of a hassle when working on remote environments.

[kovidgoyal]

Even if ncurses included the terminfo file today, it would be years before you could be confident of having it available everywhere. But as I said, I am happy to provide any info/support needed to get the terminfo into ncurses.

[kovidgoyal]

So to summarize the ncurses maintainer's response:

1. He does not like kitty's license (I'm happy to change the license of just the terminfo file to CC license, if needed)
2. He does not like kitty TERM variable. This is not going to change as it would break lots of programs that turn on various features when they see a TERM variable of the type xterm-whatever. A situation that was created by the ncurses maintainer refusing to add new capabilities for various things.
3. He does not like the fact that kitty has introduced new capabilities into the terminal ecosystem

About what I expected from my previous interactions with him. He excels at presenting excuses to maintain the status quo. I'm afraid I am not interested in tying kitty to this particular boat anchor. There's a reason the terminal ecosystem has stagnated for so long, and ncurses is a big part of that stagnation.

[z0rc]

A bit more context at https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-ncurses/2018-09/msg00007.html

Well, thing is, there is no alternative, and going rouge won't help with adoption of this terminfo. It's your call, but from perspective of regular user it's a lose-lose situation.

Ultimately there is nothing wrong of being picky about things you care and maintain, to some extent all developers are like this. The ncurses maintainers answer doesn't have an ultimate "no" context. I propose to continue discussion, as I truly hope we can find a consensus for this case.

[maximbaz]

Just wondering, would it not be a better approach to convince ssh maintainers to upload terminfo files on connect, basically to make ssh behave like kitty +kitten ssh does? I assume ssh itself would even have permissions to upload terminfo files for all users, so sudo -i will work as expected.

That way ncurses will not be a bottle-neck anymore, not for kitty, not for any other terminal that is not yet included in ncurses database.

[kovidgoyal]

@zorc Again, simply get your linux distribution's maintainers to create a separate package for kitty-terminfo and install that. Or distribute the terminfo file via Ansible. There are plenty of alternatives. If you insist on enthroning ncurses as the one true source of truth for terminal capabilities you are essentially dooming the terminal ecosystem to perpetual stagnation.

The only use for terminfo is to detect terminal features. If the terminfo maintainer refuses to accept any new features then it is a dead weight on the entire ecosystem. I contacted him to try to get him to include terminfo entries for new features adopted by many modern terminals, such as styled underlines (kitty, all VTE based terminals, hyper). I was refused and told to go add my own fields to kitty's terminfo. So that's what I did. If the maintainer now says he wont accept the terminfo file because it has those extra fields, I dont know what to tell you. And I'll note that the maintainer of ncurses happily allows xterm to have hundreds of extra definitions in its terminfo file which is included with ncurses http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-ncurses/2018-02/msg00008.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-ncurses/2018-02/msg00009.html

Similarly many people have been begging for years for a terminfo property for truecolor, it was finally added this year I think after being refused endlessly on the grounds that "no one needs truecolor in a terminal". As a direct result of that we have the insane mess described here: https://gist.github.com/XVilka/8346728

@maximbaz yes that is the best way to liberate the terminal ecosystem from ncurses, as I noted here: https://sw.kovidgoyal.net/kitty/faq.html#i-get-errors-about-the-terminal-being-unknown-or-opening-the-terminal-failing-when-sshing-into-a-different-computer

[z0rc]

@kovidgoyal I got your point. I know how to automate this, but in general this won't happen, if you have a team of developers. Changing configuration of entire server fleet, just because single developer uses uncommon terminal emulator? This sounds a bit ridiculous.

My point isn't about enthroning the ncurses, but making life of regular user a bit easier given existing solutions by making thing to work out of the box in all cases, even if takes a couple of years to do so. I would wholeheartedly support alternative solution, that can replace ncurses in the long run, if there is any. My only wish is to make it common, so I don't have worry what TERM should be used when doing ssh. Maybe it's possible to convince OpenSSH team to support this, but I don't think it's easier than ncurses case.

[maximbaz]

Maybe it's possible to convince OpenSSH team to support this, but I don't think it's easier than ncurses case.

Would you mind starting a thread on their mailing list, shortly describing what we want and why we want this? Let's see what the response will be.

[z0rc]

@maximbaz Sorry, I already have my share by discussing this at ncurses ML (it's not over yet). It's your idea, so I believe you'll be able to better represent it.

[kovidgoyal]

Well, hopefully kitty will not remain an uncommon terminal emulator for much longer :)