rename MTG to something less confusing

[FatalError42O]

Problem

Tons of people are introduced to Minetest on regular basis- most of the time they're confused by the difference between Minetest Game and Minetest, mainly because (and this is a real shocker) it's a bad name.

Newcomers think that this is all there is to Minetest, but MTG has essentially zero content- it's not even a game let alone what should represent Minetest. It's bad enough that it ships with Minetest, but it certainly shouldn't be called what it is now. I'm tired of having to explain to people that there's a difference between "Minetest" and "Minetest Game"! And I'm sure we've lost hundreds of potential players who just think this is a lame Minecraft clone and not a modding community.

Potential names

here's a few potential name ideas I threw together (really fast) that'd be probably better then what we have now for the sake of clarity:

• MeseTest Game
• MeseTest
• Mese Game
• Basic Game
• Basic (yes just "basic", because that'd describe what it is, at least)
• Minetest Base
• BaseTest
• MTG (better then having Minetest explicitly in the name)

if you have (likely much better) suggestions, leave it in the comment of this issue/discussion and I'll add it to the list

Alternatives

even if we don't rename it, something has to be done for clarity. Maybe a message when you make a new world with MTG that tells you "there's more to Minetest, Minetest Game is just a template" or something like that. There has to be a better way then this. Or maybe even just stop shipping MTG with minetest, seeing as it is a TEMPLATE for a game more then anything.

[tenplus1]

I'm all for displaying a message when starting a new world letting the player know that the Content tab exists to add mods into your game.

[sfan5]

I think this confusion would be pretty much fixed when MTG is no longer pre-installed (#13550).

alternatively see #3034

[Zughy]

I can call something "Red chair" and then say in the description that is a red table, but that doesn't prevent people from thinking it's a chair. This is especially true if people read the name first and try my "product" later. I agree with OP, something like "Modding base" is better. See also https://content.minetest.net/threads/244/

[lhofhansl]

"Minetest Sandbox" or just "Sandbox"?

[Desour]

For networking reasons, here's another issue wanting to rename mtg: #2077

[Emojigit]

Or maybe ModTest Game? Hence, we still keep the abbreviation "MTG" while emphasizing the goal of MTG as a modding base.

[jeremyshannon]

Could just call it MTG, it worked for Kentucky Fried Chicken -> KFC.

[Zughy]

How about "Legacy", stating in the description that it was the first form MT knew and that remains the biggest modding base nowadays?

[Desour]

I like how the abbreviation of Minetest Legacy, MTL, could stand for Minetest Lame. >:D

[mckaygerhard]

someone proposed "mycraft" but for the engine, maybe is best for the game and engine just being like any other interface..

[hlqkj]

All this “rename everything” thing is causing will cause more confusion than what we already have…

I bet everyone who tried minetest and enjoyed it has got a full understanding of it in a day or two; do we really need to throw a decade-long history and conventions away for nothing? Does this really solves some actual problem? (Just my opinion.)

Next to come:

• Rename default to base then hardcode an alias in the engine, to make unmaintained mods happy.
• Rename all Linux distros to something including XP, or Pro or SP3 so we’ll grab more attention from Windows users.

[hlqkj]

multicraft DO THE SAME

Let me just mention that MultiCraft calls it’s default game “MultiCraft Game”.

But anyways… Why Minetest should care about what MultiCraft does? Seems we recently moved from “look at how Minecraft does this” to the same, but with MineCraft. :)

[Zughy]

Does this really solves some actual problem?

Yes it does: I've been bringing Minetest to conventions for months and people are confused every time, thinking that it's some sort of Minecraft alpha/beta. We're living under the shadow of Minecraft, people think that MTG is Minetest as they see Minetest as Minecraft, as a game. And that's a huge problem

I bet everyone who tried minetest and enjoyed it has got a full understanding of it in a day or two

According to the aforementioned conventions, it's a pretty bad bet

[hlqkj]

Yes it does

Your saying. It actually doesn't! Go ahead and rename Minetest to "Voxelbeauty" and MTG to "MeseTest" or whatever. You'll still have to explain people that one is an engine, the other is a game.

Better design of the main menu, having a content DB since day zero and NOT pre-bundling MTG would have made things clear, it never had to do with names.

According to the aforementioned conventions, it's a pretty bad bet

According to the people you've talked to.

Minetest always had a huge amount of problems, but its name. And the same people who contributed spreading those problems with their poor roadmap decisions are still sitting there, now blaming bad branding.

So, a disheartening download/install experience; the lack of good games; the lack of an easy way to install games/mods; the lack of a mods and games audit team, preventing disastrously-written mods like mobs_redo from becoming standards, or having 15 different mods with the same name (and other mayhem I don't cite); a start menu which at the average player still looks like a 90s BIOS screen; roughly 50% of the tablets market left out because no, Apple not.

Really none of the abovementioned facts (which BTW are gradually getting solved recently) ever caused Minetest's fate? Or it's easier to blame users getting confused by trifles, instead of admitting they actually try the software and get p***d by the experience they get. It's All About The Name. You convinced me.

[mckaygerhard]

multicraft DO THE SAME

Let me just mention that MultiCraft calls it’s default game “MultiCraft Game”.

But anyways… Why Minetest should care about what MultiCraft does? Seems we recently moved from “look at how Minecraft does this” to the same, but with MineCraft. :)

if you visit such "multicraft game" repo it said that does not work.. XD in fact is not the default game included.. seems is a mineclone game lighty modified.. so nasty

[hlqkj]

if you visit such "multicraft game" repo it said that does not work.. XD in fact is not the default game included.. seems is a mineclone game lighty modified.. so nasty

I can’t find what you mention in that repo. Is it an issue, or what?

Anyways, that’s what I’ve been saying all the time: the mistake has been to include MTG - not it’s name. See minetest/minetest#13550.

[Zughy]

You'll still have to explain people that one is an engine, the other is a game

if the couple MT - MTG is removed, there's no need really

According to the people you've talked to

I've hit something like 10 different conventions around Italy, talking to hundreds of different people that have never heard of Minetest. That's a better feedback than asking internally to the very MT community

And the same people who contributed spreading those problems with their poor roadmap decisions are still sitting there, now blaming bad branding

I don't understand if you're talking about me, since I'm the one who pushed for the roadmap (but choices are taken by everyone)

a disheartening download/install experience [...]

I agree with you, but this doesn't prevent us from fixing another (imo big) problem such the misleading name

any launcher of minecraft just offer ALL THE OLDER VERSIONS OF MINECRAFT, minetest by the contrary cutoff and always said "modern bla bla development evolution bla bla"

I agree that a proper launcher where you can choose MT version would be great. The second sentence is false though, we basically do the opposite

minecraft players can still connect to so much older or newer servers, minetest no

false, you can remain on an old version (0.4 is many years old, which is the breaking version). See the launcher thing above though

minecraft has build in all the necessary nodes to made a basic and complete game, minetest dont promote its default one

there should be no default one, as it's not a game but a modding base that MT staff has already agreed to remove (like devtest in previous releases)

[hlqkj]

if the couple MT - MTG is removed, there's no need really

I kindly disagree here. It hasn't been easy for me too at the beginning, to get what a game, a server and mods are. So, I could grant that having a completely different name not containing the word "Minetest" in it at all, could help clearing some confusion - I underline, could.

But this had to be done since the beginning... Right now, I think we can't count how many mods are based on MTG and how many servers actually run heavily modded MTG's and not custom games.

I think it's way more likely confusion will happen if we break this de-facto standard name, for a potential and feeble benefit in easing people who approach Minetest for the first time understand what MT is more quickly.

Hence, in the end, simply designing a better main menu experience (in progress, I think?) and adding an easy to read, clear, simple, concise intro about Minetest in general specifically aimed at new users will completely solve this, without touching names.

I've hit something like 10 different conventions around Italy, talking to hundreds of different people that have never heard of Minetest. That's a better feedback than asking internally to the very MT community

I'm sorry, I never had a chance to attend a convention about Minetest, so I actually can't judge on this topic. However, just ten conventions in a single country can't represent the world-wide Minetest community, moreover (as in my case) you also can't say if all the people attending are actual members of this community, or potential new members, or whatever else. I respectfully point out, that our opinions here and in the other Minetest' channels could just be considered a little more interested, than those from people who attended an event out of curiosity and will potentially not mess with Minetest ever again.

I don't understand if you're talking about me, since I'm the one who pushed for the roadmap (but choices are taken by everyone)

I am not talking about someone directly, of course, even less about you. As I said, many negativeness we are experiencing now descend from radicated things, and choices taken years ago, which turned out to be not so smart.

I'd just like to point out that things are slowly getting better (see for example all the topics I cited in my prev. comment: many are being addressed right now, others already have been). It may not be necessary to break things so hardly like a radical rebrand would do, even throwing history away. I may be a grouch, but seeing what came out in minetest/minetest#13510 I've got goosebumps!...

(Edit: grammar.)

[rubenwardy]

I want to point out that this issue is as well as improving the main menu and other things. We're already working on mainmenu improvements including a redesigned content store (#13820) and new user experience when it comes to downloading games (#13550, minetest/minetest#13818)

[hlqkj]

We're going a little off-topic here - sorry for my part in it.

TL;DR: I don't support this.

Rationale: it would create more confusion within the existing community and codebase, than hypothetical benefits in the long-term. Other more incisive actions are being taken to address this, which will simplify and clear confusion about what is what -- see rubenwardy's comment.