January 2023 Pre-standardization meeting

[tsyesika]

Hello,

Please vote on the poll below for which dates work best for you for the next OCapN pre-standardization meeting, the link is below. Please vote before Thursday 12th of January. Please comment below anything you'd like to add to the agenda in the meeting, and ensure take a look at the issue to appoint a new chair.

Poll: https://framadate.org/UNd16s8XtK4YY3oD
Previous Meeting Minutes to Review: #26

Important I've listed all the times in UTC since there's no support for timezones in framadate.org please ensure to convert to your local timezone using for example https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html

[erights]

Have we received enough poll info to decide? When will this meeting be?

[tsyesika]

Yes, Monday the 16th of Jan at 6-7pm UTC.

Link to convert it to your own timezone is: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20230116T180000&p1=1440

[tsyesika]

As a matter of urgency since there's not long to until the meeting now, please comment on this issue if you have anything you'd like to add to the agenda. Below is my proposal since no one else has commented:

Agenda:

• Vote on the approval of last meeting's minutes Add the meeting minutes for 2022-12-06 #26
• Discuss appointing a new chair Appointing a new chair #27
• Discussion around OCapN URIs OCapN locators / introduction by serialized reference #29
• Plan for what people are willing to work on between meetings

[zarutian]

• Discussion around OCapN URIs OCapN URIs #29

Subitems for that agenda item:

• Use of SwissNums, should the per object version be used or a hmac construction where the hmac key is only held by the hosting vat and the contents is a vat_version_tag and some possibly human readable identifier? (vat version tag is just for the convience of the hosting vat to diffrientate between itself and possible earlier incarnation that this one is amnesiac about)

• If the vats public key is in it then would it be too much trouble of supporting the possibility of the feature of promoting a sturdyref to a macaroon or activeCapCert so to allow for unforeseen attenuation and delegation?

• More of a documentation thing where sturdyref ocapn uris are alikened to magic links sent in email (see signup/signin of https://val.town/ or Google Docs links as examples)

• And possible support or subschema for designating vats that are unveiled (and cannot keep secrets or password capabilities). Example of such vats are Agoric onchain vats.
  (ask Markm about “My name is how you know it is me, (who is speaking and how to address me)” quote and self authenticating designators)

[jar398]

I would like to leave the meeting with some idea of what issues people are committed to work on (that are relevant to this group's progress) in the time until the following meeting.

One thing I think would be helpful for the group would be some kind of lightweight informal charter, stating purpose and deliverables and setting bounds on scope. Maybe some ideas(s) about timeline for work. It's probably too early to talk about a charter now, but we might be able to end the meeting with a plan for drafting one by the next meeting.

[ocdtrekkie]

@jar398 Very strong agree. Regular meetings to update status and resolve issues presume there's an understanding what everyone is supposed to be working on between meetings. This was not super important between December and January, because holidays, but this meeting should probably make it clear what we should expect to be working on and see progress of at the February meeting.

[zenhack]

Agreed. In terms of the technical side of things:

• Before the last set of meetings trailed off, we'd been talking about starting by pinning down the basic data model (What are the core "data" types? #5). This still makes sense to me, and I'd still like to hear from @erights about the thinking the agoric folks have done on this since we last discussed it.
• More broadly, I think we should focus on foundational things like this first; sturdyref uri syntax strikes me as fairly peripheral and probably should be tackled after we've thought about the deeper questisons around a peristence model.
• 3PH for go-capnp actually has a specific spot in the queue now, rather than just "soon;" I have a few bugs and one feature to address first, but then I'm going to break ground on that. So it's a priority for me to elicit any odd requirements that I should take into account when designing this, that might make "just do what E does" not work.
  • The only thing currently on my radar on this front is that CapTP participants running on blockchains can't keep secrets, so we'd need design around that.

[tsyesika]

Reminder that the meeting is in 15 minutes.

Call link: https://bbb.sfconservancy.org/b/chr-pm5-cl8-ctl
IRC Channel: #ocapn (important for voting)

[erights]

OMG I am so sorry. After all of that arranging I failed to put the date on my calendar. I am really sorry. What happened?

On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 9:46 AM Jessica Tallon ***@***.***> wrote: Reminder that the meeting is in 15 minutes. Call link: https://bbb.sfconservancy.org/b/chr-pm5-cl8-ctl IRC Channel: #ocapn (important for voting) — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#28 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AACC3TENJYBFZWE355Q3PQDWSWCP7ANCNFSM6AAAAAATQ6ULJQ> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

-- Cheers, --MarkM

[tsyesika]

OMG I am so sorry. After all of that arranging I failed to put the date on my calendar. I am really sorry. What happened?

We decided to cancel the meeting as there were too few people, I'll get a new poll up by tomorrow evening (my time) so that we can reschedule it.

[tsyesika]

New poll for the meeting: https://framadate.org/zpawGZFVK7De88bc

I also want to propose an agenda change based on what @zenhack (that he needs to make progress on 3rd party handoffs soon). I propose that next meeting the big topic can be handoffs and either myself or someone else (maybe @cwebber) can do a presentation on how they work in Spritely Goblins with sometime for discussion after.

[tsyesika]

It's been a week so I'm going to set a date for the next meeting, it seems like Tuesday the 31st of January at 8-9pm UTC makes is the best time.

Please convert this to your local time: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20230131T200000&p1=1440

Meeting Location: https://bbb.sfconservancy.org/b/chr-pm5-cl8-ctl
IRC Channel: #ocapn on libera.chat
Scribe:
Agenda:

• Vote on the approval of last meeting's minutes Add the meeting minutes for 2022-12-06 #26
• Presentation on Spritely's third party handoff implementation

I am bumping the other topics as I suspect those two items will take most of the time.

We need a scribe for this meeting, please post here or let me know if you're willing to be a scribe for this meeting.

[dckc]

@zenhack writes:

• Before the last set of meetings trailed off, we'd been talking about starting by pinning down the basic data model ...
• More broadly, I think we should focus on foundational things like this first; sturdyref uri syntax strikes me as fairly peripheral and probably should be tackled after we've thought about the deeper questisons around a peristence model.

I think your style and mine are complimentary. My style is to have folks tell stories and trade examples and let the design emerge in the middle (with the examples crystallizing into a test suite).

I tried to get it going in the HTML WG, but with little success...

Re: story telling and test cases
From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:02:06 -0500
Message-Id: <1175004127.5321.255.camel@dirk>

I had better luck when I was hired to run a medical informatics group...

• MadMode: Setting up project tracking with trac, hg, and a little help from my friends on freenode 2010

@jar398 writes:

One thing I think would be helpful for the group would be some kind of lightweight informal charter, stating purpose and deliverables and setting bounds on scope.

We already have a somewhat formal charter, in that we are (or at least: Spritely is) beholden to a funder: NLnet grant bootstraps OCapN protocol standardization effort! -- Spritely Institute. That's enough of a charter for me. That and the ocapn README on the repo that we all seem to have consented to use. Perhaps I'll submit a PR to link the former from the latter. Others are welcome to propose edits likewise. Should there be much more to it than that?

I would like to leave the meeting with some idea of what issues people are committed to work on (that are relevant to this group's progress) in the time until the following meeting.

👍

A straightforward process I have used is: make a milestone for the next meeting. Folks can add issues to the milestone; assign themselves to what they plan to work on. I expect a milestone per meeting won't last; the milestones will come to represent something like "first demo" or "data model draft release". Github's milestone view makes a pretty good meeting agenda.

What I want to work on is #6, the demo of interop between Agoric's tech and Spritely's tech. Perhaps around chat... or an advogato-style social network reputation thing.

[jar398]

I agree with your charter approach, I just have a few little requests. I think I'll open a new issue for a charter so the trail isn't lost when this issue gets closed.

[dckc]

Let's please decide the date+time of the Feb meeting during the Jan meeting.

To get the ball rolling, I propose same time on Feb 21.

p.s. we got consensus on Feb 23

[erights]

I propose same time on Feb 21.

That would work for me.

[zenhack]

I'll be traveling the 20th and 21st, so would not be able to make that. The rest of the week works for me though. It may be easiest to just do another poll.

[cwebber]

For those of you who weren't able to make some or all of the meeting, I've uploaded a video of @tsyesika's excellent presentation on YouTube and PeerTube both: https://share.tube/w/44DhG6pcEyCFgnUHhxnUTn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQJB6MSmang

[cwebber]

Probably we can close this, yeah? (I guess @tsyesika can close it when making a thread about the next meeting ;) )

[dckc]

I suggest using "closes #28" in the meeting notes PR to close this.

[tsyesika]

the minutes have been merged (#33), I had forgotten to include @dckc's suggestion so I'll close this manually