Orion browser

[ph00lt0]

I am always very hesitant with suggesting browsers but this seems worth to discuss.

This browser both for iOS and MacOS is based on WebKit and looks and feels like Safari. This for especially iOS is a big win. Nothing attempts to make it look like chromium.
It comes with an in-build adblocker and supports extensions from both firefox and chrome

The app does not have any telemetry which is also a big win. At least worth to look into I would say.

https://browser.kagi.com/

[matchboxbananasynergy]

We've decided to recommend Safari on iOS as the underlying browser engine has to be the same, and it doesn't make sense to extend your trust to a third party when you're already trusting Apple with the entire operating system. I believe that we make it quite easy to configure Safari in a way that makes it relatively private to use.

As for macOS, the rest of the team can chime in, but I would very much prefer something like Brave which is based on Chromium rather than a WebKit browser (and if I wanted a WebKit browser, I'd still probably go with Safari).

The fact that it ships with uBlock Origin (in the form of an extension, I would imagine) isn't so much a benefit, especially when you compare it to something like Brave which has that functionality built into the browser, instead of as an extension, which reduces the security of the browser and increases its attack surface.

[matchboxbananasynergy]

A few more thoughts on this:

The browser still seems very new, and in a beta state, which we usually avoid.

Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be open-source. Then again, FOSS doesn't equal privacy or security, but we do prefer it. While Safari is not open-source, it barely matters since you're already implicitly trusting Apple to run the entire operating system for you. This is not the case with Orion Browser.

I will now let other team members weigh in on this, especially those who use iOS/macOS.

[ph00lt0]

All agree on those points. To me it's a decision on trusting them or adguard. But also a user convenience part. I have tried to convince multiple people to use adguard for iOS but it often deemed to complicated. This is simply a lot easier.

[ghost]

On macos it is good for battery lifebecause webkit is a lot more efficient on macos but that's not really a privacy or security thing, just a convenience thing

[ph00lt0]

That seems not very relevant to privacy @donefool

[ghost]

ik, bit offtopic but still. In terms of privacy it's not really that much better than the other browsers. Maybe when it's open sourced and properly comes out of beta it'll be a bit better

[ghost]

The main reason Safari isn't recommended for desktop at the moment is because of WebKit, which lacks site isolation. I don't think recommending a WebKit browser (other than Safari on iOS because all browsers are WebKit on iOS) is a good idea until the security improves.

[ghost]

tbh tor on safest blocks all the js anyways so loads of the trackers won't work. it kinda does both even if it doesn't use ublock

[ph00lt0]

Apples and pears are not the same. Tor isn't anywhere comparable to safari and neither are the cases for which you use it.

[ghost]

They're kind of going for a similar thing, they try to make Safari users look as similar as possible. Since Safari is only available on Apple's hardware, fingerprinting based on hardware differences is more difficult due to the limited pool of hardware. Yes it's obviously not as effective as Tor, but Apple's strategy for anti-tracking is similar.

[ph00lt0]

I finally had time to read the article you plugged about the two types. I fully agree with that, with one side note. Personally I doubt the strength of anti-fingerprinting techniques. I think that most people forget that much data is collected and may not be useful right now, but can by new insights form a new technique later on. I think that prevention can be more effective if you by default block every third party from loading. Ideally you use a combination of both techniques to reduce your changes the furthest.

A fully uniform look of devices would be beneficial but I believe it to be very hard; nearly impossible to achieve. Even with strengthened anti-fingerprinting you will depending on things like network speed, timezone, language etc be placed in a cohort of people. Prediction, experiments, mouse-movements, and keystrokes can also be used to fingerprint you further. To get to a fully non finger-printable state you would basically have to slow down any interaction in a uniform state in which using a service becomes so annoying nobody will do so.

Prevention could also focus at trying to detect fingerprinting attempts. Browsers could analyze scripts trying to request libraries in a way that seem to be made for fingerprinting, more than currently on naming basis. It surely would be a cat and mouse game, but would also reduce the amount of players in the game.

[Ja-ngolo]

I thought brave's anti fingerprinting on iOS was not as good as they explain here (https://brave.com/privacy-updates/20-grab-bag-ios/) they have to jump through a lot of hoops to actually make their "shields" work similar to those they have on desktop. Even on EFF cover your tracks i found that safari randomizes the canvas info but brave did not. And it generally disclosed more bits of info that its desktop counterpart, and a bit more than plain safari did. For that I agree with your recommendation to use safari with a content blocker rather than brave.