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2013-06-04.txt
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2013-06-04.txt
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"virmitio: it might be worth checking if SDL_image still works","date":"2013-06-04T17:59:25.751Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"since the libjpeg update","date":"2013-06-04T17:59:37.201Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"madewokherd: file a bug and assign it to me, if you would","date":"2013-06-04T18:00:25.580Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"then I'd have to go check myself","date":"2013-06-04T18:00:46.925Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"because I don't know if it's broken or not","date":"2013-06-04T18:01:02.070Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"no, just file the bug saying \"remember to check this\"","date":"2013-06-04T18:01:02.395Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"virmitio","message":"I've got another dozen packages in my head right now and that way I'll at least remember it something this week","date":"2013-06-04T18:01:46.423Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"figured I might as well just test it","date":"2013-06-04T18:09:46.651Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"it looks like if I install SDL_image I still get libjpeg 8 as a dep","date":"2013-06-04T18:10:07.473Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"if you swap out for the 9a dll, does it still run ok?","date":"2013-06-04T18:10:54.039Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"it looked like 8 and 9 would be bin compat (though I didn't look too hard, to be honest)","date":"2013-06-04T18:11:20.327Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"yes, it still works","date":"2013-06-04T18:11:39.162Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"although I'm annoyed that I don't understand how dependencies work, or what we should do when there is a binary-incompatible upgrade","date":"2013-06-04T18:12:04.971Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"is nuget avoiding the update because the major version changed?","date":"2013-06-04T18:12:36.310Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"(I can actually install version 9 in the nuget project alongside SDL_image, but I have to do it manually","date":"2013-06-04T18:13:02.197Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"nuget does not assume major version changes to be bin-compat (though it also does insist that they not be)","date":"2013-06-04T18:13:08.412Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"wait","date":"2013-06-04T18:13:26.154Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"*also does NOT insist","date":"2013-06-04T18:13:38.143Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"I think we might have to put the binary version (if it ever breaks) in the dll and package name :/","date":"2013-06-04T18:14:17.560Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"possibly, but at the immediate moment I'm willing to leave that be until either it happens or we have more time to look at it closer","date":"2013-06-04T18:15:29.715Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"well, my thought is what if I updated libtiff (which depends on libjpeg) to use a new binary-incompatibile version","date":"2013-06-04T18:16:15.116Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"SDL_image uses both libjpeg and libtiff","date":"2013-06-04T18:16:37.133Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"so the only way to resolve that is to have both dll's in the package at once","date":"2013-06-04T18:16:51.154Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"all this assumes that libtiff doesn't use types from libjpeg; if it did, a binary-incompatible update to libjpeg would also make an update to libtiff using the new libjpeg incompatible","date":"2013-06-04T18:18:18.264Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"I think I see your concern, but I'm not sure my head's coherent enough right now to hold an intelligent discussion about it. Would you be willing to throw all of this into an issue on github for the coapp powershell tools repo?","date":"2013-06-04T18:19:17.988Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"wait a minute","date":"2013-06-04T18:22:04.359Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"this is exactly the same as libc","date":"2013-06-04T18:22:19.838Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"and it's only really a problem if you have a library that makes frequent binary-incompatible updates, which afaik we've never encountered","date":"2013-06-04T18:23:08.444Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"(except for libc)","date":"2013-06-04T18:23:22.957Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"mfc I guess...","date":"2013-06-04T18:24:44.057Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"writing an issue","date":"2013-06-04T18:28:47.645Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"arg, the requirement that libraries know which updates of their dependencies are binary-compatible is just broken\\","date":"2013-06-04T18:38:50.508Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"I'll agree with that","date":"2013-06-04T18:39:16.336Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"I don't think I can do anything without a real scenario","date":"2013-06-04T18:45:40.284Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"well","date":"2013-06-04T18:46:11.928Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"I think we have two likely scenarios: frequent, predictable binary-incompatible updates, and rare ones","date":"2013-06-04T18:47:02.031Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"for the rare ones we can make separate packages","date":"2013-06-04T18:47:25.769Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"so there's a gtk2 package and a gtk3 package; problem solved","date":"2013-06-04T18:48:45.935Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"virmitio","message":"why are we needing separate packages? nuget packages have the means for specifying dependency package allowable version ranges","date":"2013-06-04T18:49:30.810Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"well, I guess that depends","date":"2013-06-04T18:49:55.804Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"if it makes sense to install more than one version of a dll at the same time, you need separate packages","date":"2013-06-04T18:50:17.841Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"for libpng 1.2 and 1.4 you might want to do something like that; for gtk it doesn't make sense","date":"2013-06-04T18:50:58.452Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"are we talking 'install to the system' or 'install for building my software'?","date":"2013-06-04T18:51:33.828Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"install for building software","date":"2013-06-04T18:51:48.793Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"or, would you ever want to load both versions in one process?","date":"2013-06-04T18:52:22.184Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"then I think I need an example of when you'd need multiple versions of a dep library for building another library before I'll understand","date":"2013-06-04T18:52:29.441Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"libjpeg is a possible example","date":"2013-06-04T18:52:47.709Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"or for building an end application for that matter","date":"2013-06-04T18:52:52.621Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"say 9 did break it","date":"2013-06-04T18:52:58.801Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"SDL_image and libtiff are both built to depend on version 8","date":"2013-06-04T18:53:19.389Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"libtiff may update its dependency to version 9 before SDL_image does","date":"2013-06-04T18:53:42.994Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"SDL_image depends on libtiff (which brings in libjpeg 9) and libjpeg (which it needs to be version 8)","date":"2013-06-04T18:54:54.760Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"none of these api's expose their use of libjpeg, so it doesn't matter whether they're using the same instance","date":"2013-06-04T18:55:38.704Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"ok, I can see how that could happen, but it would result in a library conflict regardless unless one or the other (sdl or tiff) decided to include jpeg as static to itself","date":"2013-06-04T18:56:23.417Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"not if the new libjpeg is in a different package with a different dll filename","date":"2013-06-04T18:57:02.332Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"otherwise they'll both require a libjpeg.dll in the same dir, and both will expect their (mutually exclusive) versions","date":"2013-06-04T18:57:12.218Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"I'm first trying to look at it under the existing model","date":"2013-06-04T18:57:31.982Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"and by existing, I mean what everyone has been putting up with for the past decade or two","date":"2013-06-04T18:57:54.423Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"how has this been resolved in the past?","date":"2013-06-04T18:58:07.637Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"put the binary version in the filename","date":"2013-06-04T18:58:20.149Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"that's what linux does, at least","date":"2013-06-04T18:58:28.481Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"also sxs would work","date":"2013-06-04T18:58:38.562Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"ok","date":"2013-06-04T18:59:00.782Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"so we could just say that because our ultimate goal is sxs and we can make that work fine, we don't care very much about this","date":"2013-06-04T18:59:09.998Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"gentoo has a thing called revdep-rebuild","date":"2013-06-04T19:00:13.206Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"I'll have a chat with GarrettS-MSFT and we'll see if we can raise an issue with the nuget folks. As I'm not sure they currently support having multiple versions installed local to a project/solution side by side","date":"2013-06-04T19:00:17.658Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"well, I don't think they need to","date":"2013-06-04T19:00:38.521Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"or should","date":"2013-06-04T19:00:49.483Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"actually, one thing you could do is put the binary version in the .dll filename and the name of the redist package","date":"2013-06-04T19:01:29.490Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"that would solve it IF we were depending on redist packages when we only needed the binaries","date":"2013-06-04T19:01:42.137Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"but the problem with that is our redists don't ever depend on other redists","date":"2013-06-04T19:01:53.125Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"for this scenario, the packages would either need to be named differently (not a preference, as it fractures the library landscape) or they need to be installable side by side","date":"2013-06-04T19:02:08.928Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"and we really can't make the redists depend only on other redists","date":"2013-06-04T19:02:26.261Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"well","date":"2013-06-04T19:02:32.269Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"or rather, we can't make a full dev lib depend only on redists","date":"2013-06-04T19:02:39.382Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"redist -> redist would probably be quite possible","date":"2013-06-04T19:03:03.430Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"why do we split out the redist packages anyway?","date":"2013-06-04T19:03:09.918Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"I thought I understood, but based on how they actually work it seems I don't","date":"2013-06-04T19:03:52.768Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"anymore? I think it's just because we haven't revisited it in a while. originally it was to avoid needing to always dep on the full dev lib. (which isn't really an option anymore)","date":"2013-06-04T19:04:09.611Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"my thought was that if I have a library that depends on another dll, but a consumer of my library doesn't need that dll's headers or .lib (just the .dll), I could use redists to just bring in the dll","date":"2013-06-04T19:05:17.098Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"we would likely be better served to roll them back together at some point, but we've been a bit overbusy to have time for sitting down and looking at it for a bit","date":"2013-06-04T19:05:23.913Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"which is actually perfect for solving this scenario","date":"2013-06-04T19:05:34.939Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"virmitio","message":"which is all well and good, as long as you are not also distributing static libs in your nuget package","date":"2013-06-04T19:06:09.457Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"did we ever decide how static libs were going to work?","date":"2013-06-04T19:06:37.193Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"sortof? the problem we've run into is that there's genuinely no 'good' way to deal with them, and a wide variety of simply abhorrent ways to handle the issue (which are really hard to differentiate from the merely mediocre options that are the best choices available)","date":"2013-06-04T19:08:22.118Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"right","date":"2013-06-04T19:08:47.079Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"if you're packing all of a lib's deps into its static .lib, this isn't a problem","date":"2013-06-04T19:09:55.917Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"to be honest, the root of the problem from my understanding is that VC has 4 separate, mutually link-time incompatible runtime libraries that can be linked against. And the selection of which to use MUST be made at compile-time.","date":"2013-06-04T19:10:17.279Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"don't we have the same problem with dynamic libs?","date":"2013-06-04T19:10:54.909Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"oh, no","date":"2013-06-04T19:11:07.399Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"because we don't know if the final image will use the static or dynamic libc","date":"2013-06-04T19:11:24.740Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"right","date":"2013-06-04T19:11:29.406Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"because unless we're passing file handles around, we don't care what runtime a dll links to","date":"2013-06-04T19:11:33.028Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"that's its problem, not an issue to the calling lib/app","date":"2013-06-04T19:12:04.959Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"static libs are a horse of another color","date":"2013-06-04T19:12:17.642Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"virmitio","message":"so, as an example, if you statically use zlib then it doesn't matter what else you may want, you MUST link against the same runtime that it was originally compiled for.","date":"2013-06-04T19:13:24.730Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"which gets really ugly if you try linking to multiple static libs that are compiled against different runtimes","date":"2013-06-04T19:14:06.131Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"you'd need a static lib for each runtime","date":"2013-06-04T19:14:19.787Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"and by 'ugly' I mean 'there is no way to successfully complete linking it'","date":"2013-06-04T19:14:38.421Z","type":"message"}
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{"nick":"virmitio","message":"that's one of the options, and we seriously considered it (and may do so again in the future, I don't know)","date":"2013-06-04T19:15:22.242Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"incidentally, it'd be really cool if we could use some sort of delta compression on our packages :p","date":"2013-06-04T19:15:34.459Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"honestly, I'm inclined to just drop this now","date":"2013-06-04T19:15:59.260Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"the other vaguely survivable option that we've gone with for the time being is to forcibly assign the runtime being built against if you link to a static lib","date":"2013-06-04T19:16:11.709Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"because I want us to not waste time on it and just move on to sxs, which we can do right","date":"2013-06-04T19:16:13.061Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"legacy, embedded, core system, etc.","date":"2013-06-04T19:16:58.614Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"we feel it a 'bad idea' to abandon these groups of developers","date":"2013-06-04T19:17:29.397Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"sure, but we can settle for an imperfect solution","date":"2013-06-04T19:17:58.277Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"virmitio","message":"and I'm pretty sure we need to solve this anyway for internal usage","date":"2013-06-04T19:18:05.160Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"my instinct is to always go for the perfect solution","date":"2013-06-04T19:18:09.767Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"and it's hard for me to back off from that","date":"2013-06-04T19:18:23.737Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"so maybe it breaks temporarily when you have these complex dependency trees with an incompatible update in there","date":"2013-06-04T19:19:27.024Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"and you have to go back and get an exact version of a package","date":"2013-06-04T19:19:50.854Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"hopefully that'll be a rare occurance anyway","date":"2013-06-04T19:20:25.723Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"and if/when I know I'm linking a library that updates frequently, I can think about it more carefully","date":"2013-06-04T19:20:50.205Z","type":"message"}
{"nick":"madewokherd","message":"*breaks frequently","date":"2013-06-04T19:21:02.589Z","type":"message"}
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