Judgements (osu!mania in particular) need to be standardised

[smoogipoo]

osu!lazer uses Perfect/Great/Good/Ok/Meh/Miss. These are fairly well defined in https://github.com/ppy/osu/wiki/Scoring#hit-results.

Other places currently have a mix of things. "Rainbow 300", "300g", "MAX", and even "Marvelous" are used. "Marvelous" is particularly egregious since it implies a "perfect" scoring value that isn't the same as our Perfect and is more equivalent to "300"(/Great). These are referenced interchangeably in many places:

• https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Judgement/osu%21mania "Rainbow 300", "MAX", and "Marvelous" (in reference to equivalency). Also refers to "Not Good" judgements which is... no.
• https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Guides/osu%21mania_Mapping_Guide "300g"
• https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Game_modifier/Hard_Rock "MAX"
• https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Judgement/Geki "MAX"
  Etc...

On top of that, osu-web uses "MAX".

"MAX" and "300g" (perhaps just "MAX" because it's common among several wiki articles) can be mentioned through a "commonly referred to as".

"Marvelous" cannot exist. The future of osu! is to use Perfect, and I would like to break the stigma that "Perfect == 300" otherwise we cannot discuss things without everyone being confused as to what others are referring to. I would like to refer to "Perfect" as the best judgement one can achieve in osu! and not as the second-top judgement in DDR.

In other words, I'd like to refer people to a wiki page about what terminology to use when discussing osu!-related topics.

Also, this issue may get quite heated. I'm not locking it for the time being in-case anyone has any suggestions that does not involve changing osu!lazer's judgement names/changing the judgement names to match that of other games.

cc @Ephemeralis @Walavouchey

[S1n1st3rn3ss]

Question - isn't name to number consistency more important than names being consistent among highest judgements?

IMO, changing all top judgements to Perfect will be confusing for players, not only because it would require renaming all top judgements in all modes (which are currently Greats in every other mode) for the sake of consistency but also because osu!mania is a huge edge-case in the way the top judgement is treated in it, since right now o!m is the only mode that has a judgement that is not affected by OD (not counting osu!catch due to it's unique gameplay and accuracy approaches)

From my (obviously subjective) point of view, reserving 320/MAX/Perfect judgement name for this specific case and a potential future use (such as future mods or gamemodes) would make more sense than creating such a discrepancy

[smoogipoo]

Other rulesets will continue to use Great as their top judgements. I don't have any immediate plans to change this, but it's conceivable in the future for either:

1. Other rulesets to adapt a perfect judgement of their own as you mention.
2. The scoring values to be determined by rulesets. (likely not ever happening)

As of right now, it is fully supported for a ruleset to define its maximum judgement as Meh (for the only achievable judgements to become Meh/Miss).

So it is already name-to-number consistent, unless I'm misunderstanding something?

Edit: I also want to point out that I don't like using numbers, because the scoring values themselves aren't set in stone. Once 320 (actually it's 315, but w/e) changes, everything that historically referred to 320 becomes outdated and potentially completely wrong.

[MChecaH]

This was probably flooded in the original discussion, though I'll re-suggest it here to be discussed.

While I understand the need to standarize judgement naming, I'd suggest adding in https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Judgement/osu%21mania other commonly used judgement naming conventions and their equivalences with osu!'s counterparts.

This is already sort of done with difficulty names coming from other names equivalent to osu!'s standard diff naming https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Ranking_Criteria/Difficulty_naming, and as a BN and player, these are quite helpful when explaining new users how the naming goes and relates to official terms.

I believe that documenting these equivalences while using osu!'s official terminology will clear up some doubts. However, it will be important to highlight those terms that are widely going to be accepted in the ecosystem, those being the ones Smoogi is proposing.

About the numbers, I'm in favor of adding that information as well (Or the % weights of each judgement affecting the Accuracy). Those would be helpful to have officially documented.

[S1n1st3rn3ss]

So it is already name-to-number consistent, unless I'm misunderstanding something?

I should've clarified that I was mostly concerned about this specific phrase in the original issue:

I would like to refer to "Perfect" as the best judgement one can achieve in osu! and not as the second-top judgement in DDR.

I assume it was a misunderstanding on my part and you were referring to osu!mania specifically and not osu! because otherwise to achieve this a change from Great to Perfect would be needed for osu!standard and osu!taiko, which is the thing that would break the consistency, being the only reason behind my initial comment, but it is solved by other rulesets adding and adapting a Perfect judgement of their own (or not changing the judgement name in the first place for the time being)

[smoogipoo]

I assume it was a misunderstanding on my part and you were referring to osu!mania specifically and not osu! because otherwise to achieve this a change from Great to Perfect would be needed for osu!standard and osu!taiko

Yep. I figured that was the case :). Indeed I meant for osu!mania.

While I understand the need to standarize judgement naming, I'd suggest adding in https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Judgement/osu%21mania other commonly used judgement naming conventions and their equivalences with osu!'s counterparts.

Sure, I think this is fine. I hesitate slightly in the context of "perfect" meaning different things in o!m vs DDR but it's probably a good thing to have it listed somewhere to disambiguate ASAP, plus I agree with the rest of your comment.

[Sebaex]

Considering both my variety on rhythm games and peppy's one (https://twitter.com/ppy/status/1580040450932867075), part of the options as a name for the max judgement available could be:
1.- 300P, as Perfect 300, similar structure to the actual Rainbow 300
2.- MAX300, yea, like the song lol

Both of them to keeping the actual numeral structure from 300 to 50 and Miss

In the end if people wants it to be "Marvelous", just change it on your skin ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[caughtintheweb]

Now there's about 100 things wrong with this post, so I'll just dive right in.

There is a claim to be made for switching up the standardized judgments from marvelous/perfect/great etc, specifically in the case of differentiating from competitors, i.e Quaver and Etterna.

However, this has proven to be entirely unnecessary for the same reason that classic DDR/SM judgments still stick around. They're known, and people don't care. Quaver uses this EXACT system in a game that came out just a few years ago, and do you think that anybody at all went "oh, this game uses the same judgment names as other VSRGs? that must mean it isn't original whatsoever."
Everybody who actually cares and knows anything about 4k VSRG knows that those are what people call those specific judgments. This specific system has been around for over TWO DECADES.

This also specifically within VSRG extends to another aspect of accuracy: ratios.
People refer to Marv:Perf ratios as MA due to a classic DDR term, and Perf:Great as PA due to another term. These two terms are simple, but contribute massively to determining how good a score is and how to identify certain things about the play.
I am aware that someone who doesn't know a whole lot about VSRG and doesn't play them very often wouldn't know this (it's pretty obvious who I'm talking about), but these are extremely important things within VSRG community.

I agree 100% with standardizing the judgments, being disorganized and referring to singular things as many others is a problem.
But entirely abandoning what is known, works well, and is an integral part of what many players think of when talking about the game, is a completely idiotic decision that makes things more confusing.
When it comes to standard where OD changes every single window, the fact of the matter is that having your timing window change on a map by map basis is really dumb, but I can ignore that for now.
SM judgments still refer to them with the same names as before regardless of what judge you're on, people just refer to them with whatever judge you're on before, example being "he got only 100 judge 5 perfects", and this can apply to mania via ODs, example being "he got 100 perfects on OD10". (some people call j7 marvelouses "ridiculous" but this only really matters in extremely high end accuracy plays which is an extreme edge case)

Here's my proposal:
Standardize them to standard SM/DDR judgments, Marvelous for 320, Perfect for 300, Great for 200, Good for 100, Bad for 50s, Miss for Miss (that one is pretty obvious lol)
However, what I think could happen is a standardization of how they're written or referred to within development context.
Examples:
MARV PERF GREAT GOOD BAD MISS
MA PF GR GD BD MS
Marvelous Perfect Great Good Bad Miss

I'm not a developer, and my words mean next to nothing to someone who doesn't care about the game mode in question. I just want to do anything I can to hope that the developers of the game people play will make the game the way the players want, not how the developers who don't play it want.

[Walavouchey]

@caughtintheweb

and do you think that anybody at all went "oh, this game uses the same judgment names as other VSRGs? that must mean it isn't original whatsoever."

Being original has nothing to do with it. In fact, stable has used plain numbers for judgement sprites (in the default skin) ever since mania was implemented in osu!, which is not even a common thing in other rhythm games.

People refer to Marv:Perf ratios as MA due to a classic DDR term, and Perf:Great as PA due to another term. These two terms are simple, but contribute massively to determining how good a score is and how to identify certain things about the play.

Sure, and nothing is stopping the people who are familiar with those terms from using those terms.

I am aware that someone who doesn't know a whole lot about VSRG and doesn't play them very often wouldn't know this (it's pretty obvious who I'm talking about)

please, this is completely unnecessary. we try to keep the discussion open (and this thread unlocked) for the sake of potentially receiving worthwhile feedback, and we're hoping that the place where we can coordinate work doesn't get flooded with heated bickering that leads nowhere.

But entirely abandoning what is known, works well, and is an integral part of what many players think of when talking about the game, is a completely idiotic decision that makes things more confusing.

We're going from "numbers" (rainbow 300, 300, 200, 100, 50, Miss) to "names" (Perfect, Great, Good, Ok, Meh, Miss). The "what is known" are community terms. Names like Marvelous, P-Great, etc. have never existed in osu! in any official capacity, be it the default skin, website display or mentions in news posts, but they'll likely continue to exist and be used in the community.

As a perhaps related example, the official term for the "osu!std" or "osu!standard" game mode is just "osu!". Nevertheless, people use unofficial names within the community, and my point is that hopefully the same can be said for judgement names, if people so want.

When it comes to standard where OD changes every single window, the fact of the matter is that having your timing window change on a map by map basis is really dumb, but I can ignore that for now.
SM judgments still refer to them with the same names as before regardless of what judge you're on, people just refer to them with whatever judge you're on before, example being "he got only 100 judge 5 perfects", and this can apply to mania via ODs, example being "he got 100 perfects on OD10".

Standardising judgement names has nothing to do with this. OD affecting hit windows is an entirely separate topic.

I just want to do anything I can to hope that the developers of the game people play will make the game the way the players want, not how the developers who don't play it want.

Skinning is your answer there, and that will allow for whatever playstyle and visual comprehension of the game you want (and it kinda does already).

[Walavouchey]

Let me try to paint a wider picture for everyone visiting this issue in the near future.

Please note that the judgement terms have been standardised in lazer for 5 years,¹ and will not change unless someone proposes something that is better on all fronts.

Why not just use numbers instead of names? That’s what stable and the website do.

The score values and accuracy weighting each judgement gives have and may change in the future.

In stable, the osu!mania “rainbow 300” (as it appears in-game) or “MAX” (on the website, being the exception to naming things with numbers) judgement has a score weighting of 320² (more than a "300" judgement), but an accuracy weighting of 300³ (the same weight as a “300”). In lazer, this judgement now has a score and accuracy weighting of 315. (And it was even 350 at some point.)

There is no sense in using the numbers as names if they have the possibility of changing (even though the values currently in use may have settled down for the time being). It will also be way more confusing for the average player whenever that eventuality would happen.

Why should judgement names be unified across game modes?

The motivation isn’t just to “unify mechanics across the four game modes”, there is a longer game being played here.

The consistent system used in lazer will work out to be much more relevant when custom game modes (where game modes are referred to as ”rulesets” in lazer) start getting integrated with scoring, leaderboards, multiplayer, spectator mode, replays, etc.⁴

All of this would be much more complicated if not downright impossible in the long run if the systems weren't designed to support more than just osu, osu!taiko, osu!catch and osu!mania from the outset.

Why not copy the naming scheme from other games?

This was answered pretty comprehensively in a twitlonger by smoogipoo. In summary:

• The osu!mania community contains people with familiarity in a lot of different rhythm games, their terms and their conventions. There is no good way to please everyone with one naming scheme, so osu! will have its own, being its own game.
• You can still use skins to change the judgement sprites in gameplay, and call them by your preferred conventions in your specific communities.

What is this GitHub issue for?

This is only for discussion about how the official and unofficial terms should be documented and presented on the wiki, as well as tracking the tasks involved.

If you want to propose different judgement names with extremely good reason, please take it to the ppy/osu repo and discuss there, with due consideration for all game modes past and future, and a wholistic view of the entire osu! community.

Footnotes

1. https://twitter.com/ppy/status/1580040953448267776 ↩

2. https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Score/ScoreV1/osu!mania ↩

3. https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Gameplay/Accuracy#osu!mania ↩

4. https://twitter.com/smoogipoo/status/1580144799470190592 ↩

[Walavouchey]

@smoogipoo

osu!lazer uses Perfect/Great/Good/Ok/Meh/Miss. These are fairly well defined in https://github.com/ppy/osu/wiki/Scoring#hit-results.

The current articles are documenting stable. Yes, the references to "Marvelous" may be something that can be removed and much of the wording in the judgement articles will need to be cleaned up, but otherwise the judgement names are correct if we're talking about stable. "MAX" is used on the website and "rainbow 300" refers to the sprite in the default skin.

Is the intention here to switch these articles to use the new lazer terms? If so, then #7139 is of relevance here. The short-term solution would be to document both in separate sections, but if we're also going to be using the new terms in news posts (there have been a mix with the recent pp/sr news posts), then perhaps we should expedite the switch and call the old terms deprecated immediately. We'd still need to document the old default skin sprites, but just call them by the new names.

I'm guessing the new terms are also going to be used in osu-web? In that case "MAX" would get removed from the wiki, since the website is the only official place it appears in.

[cl8n]

Also, this issue may get quite heated. [...]

I feel like this is indicative of some kind of misunderstanding. the wiki doesn't define anything, it describes stuff about the game and community. nobody should be getting "heated" over an accurate description

if osu names a judgement one way, while plenty of players refer to them in other ways, the wiki just has to say that. any possible confusion throughout the wiki can be avoided with better inline explanations and better linking to articles about the judgements

[peppy]

As @cl8n says, and has been said before, the goal here isn't to change terminology. The wiki is intended to resolve any confusion. Each judgement as defined by osu! should have similar ones from other popular games listed alongside it with context required.

Because stable is still the most common client, i'd probably put the lazer ones next to the stable ones in brackets or something similar.

[Walavouchey]

the goal here isn't to change terminology

maybe this is just in reference to documenting alternatives on the wiki, but just so we're on the same page:

osu!

stable	lazer
"300" / "300 Geki" / "300 Katsu"	"Great"
"100" / "100 Katsu"	"Ok"
"50"	"Meh"
"Miss"	"Miss"

osu!taiko

not sure where the wiki article got the names from, maybe taiko no tatsujin. stable only ever shows icons

stable	lazer
"Great" (良)	"Great"
"Good" (可)	"Ok"
"Miss" (不可)	"Miss"

osu!catch

again stable uses just icons

stable	lazer
"300" ?	"Great"
"Miss"	"Miss"

osu!mania

stable	lazer
"Rainbow 300" / "MAX"	"Perfect"
"300"	"Great"
"200"	"Good"
"100"	"Ok"
"50"	"Meh"
"Miss"	"Miss"