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Investigate power (CW) appearing on rx only ports #228

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ramdor opened this issue Oct 24, 2023 · 98 comments
Closed

Investigate power (CW) appearing on rx only ports #228

ramdor opened this issue Oct 24, 2023 · 98 comments
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bug Something isn't working IMPORTANT Very important issue that needs resolving ASAP investigate Investigation is needed

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@ramdor
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ramdor commented Oct 24, 2023 •
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This may or may not be related. In addition to a receive only antenna (Beverage) that I attach to
port RX2, I also attach a preamplified and multi coupled Shared Apex Loop on Ant Port 3, and my
primary transmit output is on Ant Port 1. (I leave Port 2 disconnected as an isolation boost).
I discovered when using CWX in break in or semi breakin mode, my transmit power appears on
Ant Port 3, for a split second as the internal relays are switching. Consequently, this power
burst on what is designated as a "do not transmit" Antenna port, has destroyed a
strisberg active multicoupler. This all came together for me, while testing the Pure Signal
bug with the rest of the gang. I ultimately determined that RF was appearing on the
undesired Ant Port by watching it with a dedicated watt meter. This only happens in
CW mode as the internal TRX clack back and forth with semi break in delays of approx 250 ms.

I created a video of the phenomena and will post if none of this makes sense.

Originally posted by @nj2us in #226 (comment)
@ramdor ramdor added the investigate Investigation is needed label Oct 24, 2023
@nj2us
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nj2us commented Oct 24, 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxWFznqrAvI

A you tube video that demonstrates the anomoly.

Jeff NJ2US

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Oct 24, 2023 •
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Fantastic video showing the issue @nj2us

Investigation

  1. CWX form uses NetworkIO.SetCWX() to turn CW on/off on the TRX. The cwx form code uses threading so this call is happening from various threads. No configuration of alex/antennas are made.

  2. A thread called PollPTT in console.cs is running with a 1 ms delay loop looking for a number of ptt states, one of which is PTT from the radio using NetworkIO.nativeGetDotDashPTT() which is set when NetworkIO.SetCWX is used in 1) . This sets the front end MOX state only if QSKEnabled is not set.

  3. On mox change in console.cs, HdwMOXChanged() is eventually called with a call to Alex.UpdateAlexAntSelection() updating any necessary antenna selections with NetworkIO.SetAntBits()

Issues:

  1. There is potential for a delay between 1) + 2) . Consequently 3) will be delayed sometime after 1) is already outputting power

  2. QSK will never update the mox state, so no calls to Alex will be made to setup SetAntBits. QSQ is however disabled if TX/RX antennas are different.

@nj2us
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nj2us commented Oct 24, 2023

Here is a more detailed video (as requested by Richie) showing status of RF on all ports:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6MuSHUVJ8A

@nj2us
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nj2us commented Oct 24, 2023 •
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Ramdor asked if I had a clue as to how long this may have been an issue, and I answered thusly,

Richie, it's been an issue for several years, as I have POPPED 4 or 5 of those Stridsberg active multi coupler on Port 2 and Port 3, and never understood why until this Pure Signal anomaly showed up, causing me to investigate further, that maybe I was blowing these devices up through the Output port and not the input port on the Multicoupler! I suspect, very few users attach antennas with electronic components on ports 2 or 3, and if they have, maybe they didnt know that couplers and preamps are blowing because RF is showing up where they least suspect. If you figure that most users may be attaching passive antennas that would igore or radiate the unwanted RF, the OP would probably never realize it.

Jeff NJ2US

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Oct 24, 2023

Yeah ramdor/me same ;) It does do it here, but only when using CWX. I do not have a key so cant easily test that, but yes it does put power out to an antenna port that is specified as RX only. This may be a firmware thing, not entirely sure. Will have to get the others involved who know more about these things. A warning should be put out tbh.

@ramdor ramdor added bug Something isn't working IMPORTANT Very important issue that needs resolving ASAP labels Oct 24, 2023
@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Oct 30, 2023

Hello,

i have a Anan 100D and maybe is not related, but on some occasions i notice one relay activated
or released inside the Anan most during TX operation and less on RX.

Most of the time i use SSB and notice this, but once on FM i heard very clear on a audio
pause and i make a new pause trying to see if anything have change on power swr etc.

Since this doesn´t present any changes on TX i didn´t care and i have upload the firmware
again to see if it goes way but from time to time some relay is activated, reading this topic
i remember to post it just in case other have same situation and also want to report.

Regards

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Oct 30, 2023

I have decided to undo the changes I made Jeff, until we formulate a better fix. The issue is caused because SetCWX used by the cwx form, and serial pin keying causes the radio to output power before the hardware antenna ports etc have been configured.

The hardware is configured after Thetis detects a cw hardware ptt change, and this obviously will be after power is coming out because of the SetCWX.

A new branch will be created at some point to work on this alone.

ramdor added a commit that referenced this issue Oct 30, 2023
@ramdor
some CWX testing work removed
bc922cf 
- removed majority of CWX changes regarding the late selection of antennas etc. This needs much more investigation. #228 still a big issue
- notch DB import should hopefully work. 4th time is a charm, fixes #236
- display thread moved to STA model, to get some feedback on resize issues people were having
-cwx is stopped at power down/close down of Thetis
@ramdor ramdor closed this as completed in ed024c5 Oct 30, 2023
@ramdor
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ramdor commented Oct 30, 2023

didnt want to close this, oops.

@ramdor ramdor reopened this Oct 30, 2023
@w3ub
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w3ub commented Oct 31, 2023

I ran an RX antenna a couple of years ago, and burnt out the MOSFET in my RX preamplifier about four times, always in CW mode ... I think this was the cause.
Doug

@RdWing
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RdWing commented Nov 1, 2023

I believe this is the same issue I was seeing with my Mk 2.5 7000.
See post on the apache forum from last October 2022.

Note, I am specifically speaking about power being detected (and actually transmitted), on other antenna ports.

I don't think I was using serial port keying at that time.

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Nov 1, 2023

@RdWing yes, this is that is exactly this same issue. If you watch Jeff NJ2US excellent vids further up this thread they show the same issue.

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Nov 2, 2023 •
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I have verified this also happens on PiHPSDR.
It happens on an ANAN-G2.
It happens using an Iambic key plugged in to the front,
and also with a straight key.

Seems to be on the transition from RX->TX

@dl1ycf
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dl1ycf commented Nov 2, 2023

I think I understand what's happening.

Here I refer to the Anan-7000 PA board but the situation
is the same for other boards.

Suppose Ant3 is used for RX and Ant1 for TX.

Upon a RX/TX transition, two relays are switched:

K3 which is closed during RX opens (disconnects Ant3 from T/R circuit)
K1 which is open during RX closes (connects Ant1 to T/R circuit)

Relay switching times are relatively slow, of the order 20 msec

If no RF appears quite fast after switching time (and since the T/R
circuit in Anan-7000 is with diodes it is likely) then some msec
of RF output may still find their way to Ant3 since K3 is not
completely opened.

This is in particular a problem with "CW handled in Radio" for the following
reason:

  • you touch the CW paddle
  • the FPGA puts the radio into TX mode and sets the "PTT" flag
  • PTT flag is sent to host PC and CW transmission starts
  • host PC slews down receivers and slews up TX,
    and then it changes the relays.

I do not see how to solve the problem from the software side in this case,
since the RX/TX switching as well as the RF pulse formation is
entirely done in the FPGA. So the SDR program is informed about the
T/R switch while it is already going on and therefore the commands
to change the relays comes late (even if you do it in the SDR program
immediately after receiving the "PTT on" in the HPSDR data stream.

If the RX/TX switch is initiated in the SDR program, one can certainly
include a delay between antenna switching and setting PTT, but this
case is not so dangerous anyway since the TX IQ samples have to make
their way through the buffers. The "CW handled in Radio" case
it where I have to scratch my head.

The "CWX" case in Thetis should be manageable, since the SDR program sends the
"PTT on", doesn't it?

DL1YCF

@dl1ycf
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dl1ycf commented Nov 2, 2023

In my preferred CW setup the problem is much less likely to appear:

  • use and external (WinKey) keyer
  • connect Key and PTT of the keyer with the CW and PTT in jacks
  • use a "PTT lead in" delay of 150 msec

This way, the radio is put into TX mode 150msec before generating RF, and this is usually enough to inform
the SDR program that we are going TX and the SDR program then has time to switch the Ant1/Ant3 relays.

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Nov 2, 2023

This takes another interesting twist if you change from SEMI to QSK in Thetis.
The RF follows the RX Antenna (this case 3) and no RF output on the TX Antenna (this case 1).

@laurencebarker
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laurencebarker commented Nov 2, 2023 via email

Repository owner deleted a comment from w-u-2-o Nov 6, 2023
@nj2us
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nj2us commented Nov 10, 2023 •
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My band aid approach to masking this problem is to attach my "Active" receive antenna to the "EXT1" port, and then set Receive Antenna Control to EXT1. I couldnt find any operational mode that cause Transmit RF to escape through EXT1. The only functionality lost is that you can't do a fast toggle between TX and RX antennas on the VFO control/Band Stack window in the GUI. Maybe the EXT1 port can be manipulated in software to allow quick toggle between EXT1 and Transmit Antennas.

@ramdor ramdor pinned this issue Dec 21, 2023
@ramdor ramdor unpinned this issue Dec 21, 2023
@n4py
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n4py commented Dec 28, 2023

I would think setting the CW key down value to 15 msec would solve this.

@n4py
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n4py commented Jan 3, 2024

So I just got an Anan 8000DLE. I can confirm this is a serious problem. I did the following experiment.

  1. I connected my LP-500 watt meter to antenna 3.
  2. I put a dummy load on antenna 1.
  3. I set antenna 1 for xmit and antenna 3 for receive.
  4. I transmitted 100 watts with my paddles via an external keyer.

Many times I saw a brief 100 watts on antenna 3. Also saw a brief high SWR several times. This also failed in the same way sending CW via an external software program sending KY commands.

So there is definitely a bad timing problem here. I had CW key down delay set at 15 msec. I was using semi breaking at 250 msec delay.

Carl N4PY

@mdblack98
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mdblack98 commented Jan 3, 2024 via email

@n4py
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n4py commented Jan 13, 2024 via email

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Jan 13, 2024

@n4py

Carl, I believe you own a ANAN-8000, those firmware images I posted are for the MkIII which uses a different FPGA. There are 3 different FPGAs used in the 7000/8000/Andromeda ANAN series. Check this thread for some background info: https://community.apache-labs.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4463

@n4py
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n4py commented Jan 13, 2024 via email

@RdWing
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RdWing commented Jan 13, 2024

@RdWing Here are 2 more images to try:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gnzu4s3o9wadb70ikw1ec/Metis_Orion_MkIII_Protocol_2_v2.2.2C.rbf?rlkey=r4ehe4mhuis06uc9rb1rudi9i&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/n3npgs5t8es5sjyqhie8s/Metis_Orion_MkIII_Protocol_2_v2.2.2D.rbf?rlkey=irpihahlc21wou9q44h4kstdj&dl=0

C: Mostly working, sequence errors when operating RX2, transmit spectra still unpure.
D: Constant seq errors, spectra even worse.

@n4py
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n4py commented Jan 13, 2024 via email

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Jan 14, 2024 •
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@RdWing
I've taken a new approach and made sure the FPGA timing was fully constrained as I was
getting some timing errors during the build. Please try this FW image:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6k9yszmrdca1kodj8oqc1/Metis_Orion_MkIII_Protocol_2_v2.2.3A.rbf?rlkey=bfmecsk5chr4aer1u9nrj7fsv&dl=0

@n4py
Thank-you for pointing out this issue with RX2, your mentioning of
"But I can get it to work with the BPF window by turning on Bypass for RX2 and then turning off Bypass for RX2." got me to relook at my last pull request to ramdor's Thetis source and sure enough, there
is a bug. I put in a new PR to fix it:
#387

@RdWing
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RdWing commented Jan 14, 2024 •
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@RdWing I've taken a new approach and made sure the FPGA timing was fully constrained as I was getting some timing errors during the build. Please try this FW image: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6k9yszmrdca1kodj8oqc1/Metis_Orion_MkIII_Protocol_2_v2.2.3A.rbf?rlkey=bfmecsk5chr4aer1u9nrj7fsv&dl=0

@n4py Thank-you for pointing out this issue with RX2, your mentioning of "But I can get it to work with the BPF window by turning on Bypass for RX2 and then turning off Bypass for RX2." got me to relook at my last pull request to ramdor's Thetis source and sure enough, there is a bug. I put in a new PR to fix it: #387

@n1gp 2.2.3A has Constant SEQ error 8 (DDC2), and transmit spectra still looks funky. However, occasionally the spectra will clean up before becoming dirty again. See https://youtu.be/ijLy666_FT0

image
image

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Jan 15, 2024

dev_ant_isolation_test_2 here : https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/isosv14p0tvguq4a9gzo7/Thetis-v2.10.3.6-dev_ant_isolation_test_2.x64.msi?rlkey=g7z2nnswpkyyava4xjop3d4r6&dl=0

Has fixes from Rick regarding RX2.

VT for the above: https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/fe24adead0199512bc5526aa164a8e2a056ddafe5b85edb74bf79654ff10039d?nocache=1

@n4py
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n4py commented Jan 15, 2024 via email

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Jan 28, 2024

@n1gp Hey Rick, do you have links to versions of firmware that fix this broken down into radio models and/or fpga variants that we can list in post here. I am not really sure of the current state of everything now tbh. I have been mia for a few weeks and will probably be so until mid/end of Feb. Cheers, Richie.

@laurencebarker
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laurencebarker commented Jan 28, 2024 via email

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Jan 28, 2024

@ramdor

Hi Richie.

Yes, I have firmware images for all of them. Some tested by myself and others. Some
that have not been tested. I posted them to the ANAN Forum here:

https://community.apache-labs.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4972

-Rick / N1GP

@ramdor
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ramdor commented Jan 28, 2024

@rick @laurencebarker cheers both. I'll tidy up a few things this evening and make another Thetis dev release in a few hrs.

@rick

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@rick rick mentioned this issue Feb 3, 2024
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@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 13, 2024

Hello,

I have ANAN 100D (Angelia) tested Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.1A.rbf and the first
thing i notice was high SWR, return to previous version and all was fine,, some days later
i make the same test again, and there was the swr problem again.

I´m using Thetis V2.10.3.4, is it necessary to use also latest version ?

Any other process that i must follow ?

Regards
.

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Feb 13, 2024

@Roturbo

Please update your Thetis to the latest version:
https://github.com/ramdor/Thetis/releases/download/v2.10.3.6-dev_2/Thetis-v2.10.3.6-dev_2.x64.msi

There was an issue with the Alex bits not being set correctly in a previous test version.

@n4py
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n4py commented Feb 13, 2024 via email

@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 15, 2024

@n1gp

Hello, i have try latest version, first i test it with old firmware for some hours, all was ok,
with new firmware i still have erratic SWR, also reset database and it is the same.

If there any other test or firmware to test please inform.

Regards

@n1gp

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@n1gp
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n1gp commented Feb 16, 2024 •
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@Roturbo

Scratch those last four images, they have a bug preventing the Ethernet from working.
Please instead try this image that may have gotten missed in this thread but tests OK by others:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kzu37u2n1qbvuttqi8iyj/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.1C.rbf?rlkey=m1de81a69d5oj9j66xbsbbf3a&dl=0

And these are new:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zajs7pdca2il68fgmdr45/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3I.rbf?rlkey=l6fm54v5pl1hi6m9gaxfgha2p&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mb9axhtpfj9z0u5eep0x7/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3J.rbf?rlkey=w231eby29dt4zd9rl2j7grwlo&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dtvncn9fkanks9mm4fhf0/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3K.rbf?rlkey=xq766428wt2gknh1anyz49k59&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a71quuzqclyt1qttwedc6/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3L.rbf?rlkey=oii49kxu691s4b4i38crqi046&dl=0

@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 17, 2024

Hello @n1gp

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3J.rbf
Less SWR spikes but still pressent
Sequence error 266 (CCDDC2 Mic) with audio interrupts

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3I.rbf
Too many sequence error, didn´t test the SWR
Sequence error 264 (DDC2 Mic) connection lost, Thetis shutdown

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3K.rbf
No connection.

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.3L.rbf
No connection.

Back to Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.1.8.rbf and all starts to work again.

Regards

@n1gp
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n1gp commented Feb 17, 2024 •
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Thanks @Roturbo

I have gone back to the 12.1.8 firmware and added in only the CW/RF fix. Here are
4 more images from that (G & H are reported by another user to be the best):

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fpa1ptgj6jr9hx89s3n1y/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4E.rbf?rlkey=v7gm4kl0rbl76dmdmwbxezlj4&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/poxbljyziai84u8cc3sf0/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4F.rbf?rlkey=be8j8htd6nwxzauftkzmtr3m1&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fuo8dde6x3od1nslq3j7t/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4G.rbf?rlkey=6tkxwr52dpdxxopur8z19rifn&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oukveohtowv0utf9ncc8c/Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4H.rbf?rlkey=w197nrz5qjzy86ohzzc2mq1nx&dl=0

@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 18, 2024

.
Hi @n1gp

here is the report.

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4E.rbf
SWR ok on TUN, but didn´t test with 2TON ,, no PS, Single Cal nor responding

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4F.rbf
SWR 1.7 with TUN,, with 2TON SWR is more than 2 and RED SQUARE is back,,
PS not working, only some random dots, Single Cal nor responding

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4G.rbf
SWR ok on TUN and 2TON,, PS start to work something but blue and yellow
lines are dots instead of lines

Metis_Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.2.4H.rbf
No SWR on TUN or 2TON, PS working normal, AmpView lines perfect.

The last one (H) seams to solve the 2 problems i have found, i will keep using this version
and if there is any other problem i will report, i don´t do CW so the problem of power on
external RX ports was not tested.

Tanks for your work.

Regards

@W2PA W2PA mentioned this issue Feb 18, 2024
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@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 19, 2024

Hi @n1gp

found one problem, PS after some time get confused and the main signal is ok, but it start
to project interference 200khz up and down from the center audio (SSB).

They are mirror, for example if i see a extra signal on left side at 40khz i do see
the same type of interference 40khz on the right.

At start all is ok,, after some minutes of talking and it start to do this,
maybe timing or temperature related, but i was using less than 20w.

Also, on the moment i see the PS disturb for the second time with the space of 3 hours
i run to change back to the v12.1.8 without changing any setting, and with the difference
of only 2 or 3 minutes and with the new firmware all start to work normal.

I keep talking and the problem was solved,, so the v12.2.4H is the best from all,
still it need some tuning on PS,, or maybe in other points that i still didn´t see.

Regards

@Roturbo
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Roturbo commented Feb 19, 2024

image
Sample Rate is 768000

@w-u-2-o w-u-2-o unpinned this issue Feb 20, 2024
@ramdor
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ramdor commented Jul 7, 2024

Since there have been no updates since 20Feb, I will close this. We can re-open if required.

@ramdor ramdor closed this as completed Jul 7, 2024
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