Turnigy Multistar 30A #52
Comments
|
This seems rather serious. There are a number of posts regarding this issue. Of course, I went and flashed mine before seeing there were problems. Now I'm afraid to fly until either this is resolved, or I have to order new ESCs :-( http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1762953&page=3#post27472839 |
|
Maybe there is a fuse-Bit Problem or something like this. To specify the Issue: With a mounted prop, the Motor needs a lot ore current and the ESC is getting boiling hot. If you need more informations, please ask, so I can help you. |
|
Okay, I can confirm that I have this exact problem. I ran on low throttle (on the ground) and the Multistar 30A SBEC ESC got noticeably warm in less than 30 seconds. The others (3 * Multistar 30A OPTO) were still icy cool. I flashed all of them with the latest kda.hex yesterday. Another data point... since flashing, the ESC in question tries to drive the motor even when the only power is from the flight board via USB. This is new behaviour, and very suspicious. |
|
Hi,Floyer007 |
|
@Goodplayervivian, where would I find the updated code? There are no recent commits here, you have no repositories, and none of the forks seem relevant. |
|
I also use this ESC, I think you flashed a wrong software and get this problem, pls try to download the correct files and select the right version file to flash, wish you will be success! |
|
I also solve this problem by flashing the software, here I upload the two different version ESC with two different files,hope this can help your guys |
|
@Goodplayervivian, thanks for the file. I won't get a chance to reflash until tomorrow at the earliest. How did you generate the modified firmware? What options? What would be really useful is if you could actually document the code differences from the existing kda.inc, and/or issue a pull request to get them in here. There seem to be a lot of people burning up these ESCs for no good reason, if the solution is already understood. |
|
@Goodplayervivian what changes did you make for them to work? could you create a pull request? @JimKuhn do you know what git commit started this overheating, so I can clone it and roll back the changes(I really need the firmware, the official one that shipped with it is horrible. I cant fly with it as the motors won't spin at the right speeds so the quad twirls on the ground and rips it's props. I know its the official firmware as I swapped out everything with spares. I also tested the esc with different motors and the same problem). |
|
@thehurley3 I have no idea what commit started the problem. I was using the stock firmware (successfully). Upon flashing with SimonK, 3 of the ESCs (OPTO) seem fine, the 4th (SBEC) does heat up dramatically. @Goodplayervivian I definitely have the old version of the ESC (if the pictures you enclosed are accurate). Flashing with your enclosed Old.hex does not seem to fix the problem, the ESC is blistering hot in short order... |
|
@JimKuhn Thanks |
|
This is a refresh rate problem. The multistar ESCs are using a p-channel FET that has a really high turn-off time according to the datasheet. What that means is that the body diode in the FET is still conducting current when PWM is turned on. The easy way to fix this is to reduce the PWM rate to 8kHz, which will allow the body diode in the FET to turn off between each cycle of commutation. I've made an edit to the code that seems to fix the problem. The downside is that the PWM rate is now into the audible range, which is kind of annoying. But at least your aircraft won't catch on fire now - they're nice and cool to the touch after extended full-throttle operation, even without any airflow over them. Either way it's a simple fix and I'm going to submit a patch. If it's accepted, you'll be flashing 'multistar.hex' to these instead of 'kda.hex'. Stay tuned. |
|
For those of you capable of compiling this yourselves: http://meat.damnit.us/tgy/multistar.patch should do nicely. |
|
For those of you not capable of compiling this yourselves: http://meat.damnit.us/tgy/multistar.hex will do the job. |
|
@khudson, fantastic... this patch looks plausible :-) I'll apply and build On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 4:53 PM, khudson notifications@github.com wrote:
|
|
Hello! I was actually just testing this myself with a Multistar 30A that arrived yesterday. Mine is all N-channel, no P-channel. I've posted pictures here: http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004/ ...and renamed the old ones to _old: http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004_old/ . khudson, do yours look different? It will need more than adjusting the PWM frequency, if so.. |
|
When I take a look at your pictures, I have the Problems, with the "old" version. |
|
Are there any differences at all with your board vs the pictures in the "old" directory? Like which FETs they used? Possibly there is an intermediate revision where they tried to do something cheaper (my assumption :)) and then figured that was a bad idea and redesigned it to be all-N-channel. So, it turns out mine was just kda.inc modified to have an inverted high side. I've pushed a new kda_nfet board type and fixed the voltage sense values for this and the original board (normally not used). |
|
sim-: mine look like the '_old' type. I ordered them about a week ago from the HK US warehouse. An all n-FET design makes these far better than they were, especially at that price point. Anyways, I'll verify the FETs are the same on your "old" one and mine, and follow up to this message. Jim: I'm not sure - I don't own the "opto" version (opto in quotes here because it's probably not actually optoisolated - I haven't seen any of them that are). If you cut the shrink off and take some photos that show the FET model number I can dissect the datasheets and let you know what I think is going on. |
|
Looks like your old one has Toshiba TPC8020 n-channel FETs and Alpha/Omega AO4407A p-channel FETs. I do believe we've found the culprit - there is an intermediate (likely indeed "cost savings") version that uses instead Toshiba TPC8123 p-channel FETs and retains the TPC8020 n-channel FETs. From the datasheets for the AO4407A and TPC8123: TPC8123: Turn-off fall time: 80 ns, no specific body diode recovery time Either way the two parts are such a different spec it's kind of amazing they don't fry themselves with the stock firmware. |
|
@khudson - I can confirm that both the "opto"/BEC version both use the TPC8020-H. The "opto" uses the AO4407A, whereas the BEC version uses the TPC8123 |
|
@khudson I'd tested your multistar.hex and it works fine. (No overheating) But I have no Quad currently to test it. |
|
@khudson @Floyer007 I'll be flashing and flying hopefully tomorrow (too much came up today). Thanks for the work on figuring out this mystery. |
|
But test it carefully, maybe there is an unexpected behavior at full speed or something like that. (I didn't test the motors with props) @sim- I'd forgot to check the name of my mosfets. Also I forgot them at my laboratoy and will give more informations about them the next days. |
|
I just got back from a session at the park. Aside from having to free one of my quads from a tree (heh) all my ESCs performed flawlessly, as did the batch of 4 that my friend had on his quad. We fly pretty aggressively, so if something was going to burst into flames it probably would have. |
|
Ok, I pushed a kha_8khz target for this case (done with just an include), since this probably also affects compatible boards. When I was originally testing with the HK-SS30A (non-HW) boards (http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_HK-SS20A/), the issue seemed to be related to the slew rate (and maybe miller effect?) and the drive of the high side. The high side FETs briefly turn on while the low side was turning on (swinging down) if the current was still flowing through the PWM'd phase. Depending on the motor and load of the motor, it would be fine or would get very hot in seconds. This happens even at low speeds, so I found that I could drag a motor by hand without causing much heating, but then if I dragged a little more, it would rapidly heat the high-side FETs (because they were all turning on-ish, for a brief period). On the 'scope, you could see that the difference was if the current had collapsed or not yet by the time PWM turns on (pulls down) again. For example, with this (old, unrelated) 'scope trace, you can see that the current has stopped before the PWM (on ch1) turns on again: http://0x.ca/sim/esc/timing_loss_fix/zc_debug_unloaded_390kv_zoom.png ...but dragging/loading the motor elongate the time it takes to collapse back to the floating range, and, with enough load, meets the part where it turns back on again, leaving a trace of just high and low on the PWM'd phase. I suspect the problem here could be fixed by adjusting the gate resistors on one side (low or high), or by changing the drive strength through the NPNs that they use to drive the P-channels. Lower PWM will help, but the shoot-through problem will still happen if the motor is loaded enough. |
|
Hello, i have also bought 3 weeks ago 6 Multistar 30A BEC at Hobbking in European Warehouse. Before flashing i have read about the heating Problems. So now i opened the heat shrink and found a old Design, but with TPC8123 and TPC8020H |
|
hello i buy the same esc like sim : http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004/ whit "tcpa 8012 h" so n channel i flashed them whit kda.hex and they burn immediatly so who have tested kda_8khz whit this version? |
|
Those need to be flashed with kda_nfet.hex as simon outlined above. Then they won't burn. |
|
I've already wished a few times that I had yet another channel and the external trigger, but it really depends on what you're doing. You can mix ESCs with different firmware. They may have very slightly different power characteristics, but you probably won't notice. 8kHz is the PWM frequency, which is a workaround for circuitry issues on the boards where they tried to change FETs but before they moved to a P/N design -- cross-conduction can occur and cause excessive heating. This is completely unrelated to the heating you might see if you flash the wrong target without using a current-limited source and fry some FETs. :) |
|
Yea that's understandable, cheers for getting back. Happened at the worst and most frustrating time for me when I was starting out but searching back then there was nothing on it. The chip on the three ESC's that seemed ok at the time are the 4407A P-Channel which I am assuming are the old original ones? Before they changed them to N-Channel FETS? |
|
Right, as in the first ones I received right when after they were announced: http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004_old/ There are some changes in the middle where 8kHz PWM is needed, and now they've finally moved to an all-N design http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004/ |
|
Good to know, cheers for the info and for all the hard work you've put into this hobby. |
|
Hi Simon, I really don't know which one to get and could use some advise from someone who has knowledge of the equipment. The 2ch w/ext. trigger or 4ch. I listed what I would mostly be using it for but can narrow that down even more if it would help you with advising me. Mainly the R/C stuff like the speed controllers or testing components on circuit boards to see what went bad. Should I get the cheap PC 2ch scope w/ext. trigger for stuff I need an ext. trigger for and get the nice 4ch for everything else? Would the PC scope work good enough to test the speed controllers or are those just junk? I promise I won't get mad if you help me decide what I should get and I end up not liking it. Not that you care but just in case that was stopping you ;) Maybe you could point me in the direction of something that I could read to help me decide. I read a bunch on EEVblog but I couldn't find anything on what scope I should get. What do you use for testing the speed controllers? Thank you, |
|
I recently bought a Turnigy SK450 with 20A multistars & flashed one of the esc's with kda_nfet.hex. Turns out its a mixed P/N model with 4407A and 8020. See attached pics for anyone with same model so they don't make same mistake I did :) http://postimg.org/image/eny28qmxt/ Cheers |
|
I use 4ch mostly only to capture all motor phases in complicated conditions. Your can use any channel on the 4ch as an external trigger. It's your call. :) Those 20A multistars seem like P/N, so I'm surprised kda_nfet worked at all (reminds of that video where the ESC was shooting fire while working)... I really wish there was a reliable way of stopping before damage is caused in those cases.. I suppose it would possible if it saved state to the EEPROM to avoid being later confused by spinning motors, but it still sounds unreliable. |
|
That's another thing I was wondering. If you can use another channel as a trigger then u could have 3 channels with 1 trigger. So what's the benefit of a 2 channel scope with a trigger? From what I read there are 3 versions of the Multistar 20a and the older 2 work fine but the newest one just burns up even though they say, and I quote, "All Multistar ESC's feature an ATmega MCU that opens the door to customizable firmware - for those so inclined!". On the RapidESC Database it says the newest one and middle one are N and the oldest one is P/N. The 2 older ones use kda and the new one uses kda_nfet. So I'm a little confused on that. Wouldn't you use something different on the one that has both P&N Fet's? I ordered mine on 10/24/14 and I have the ones that look like dflash0's pictures. I haven't seen any that look like turorit's pictures. I'm going to save the Multistars for something else and get the Hobby King 20a Blue Series. I can get it to fly ok but if there's wind it oscillates fast and that makes for crappy video. If they ever get the Multistar 20a controllers back in stock I'm going to order a couple to experiment with and if you feel like helping I'll try any ideas you might have. |
|
Tried flashing some old Multistar 30amps with the kda_8khz that have the TPC8123 fet in them. Get extremely warm after a minute of running the motor. These were the ones I originally flashed the kda on but got too hot too fast, tried the kda_8khz version but still get warm. Any ideas? I'm not in any need of these but having some working spares ones would be good. Could anyone shine light on this? Thanks |
|
Hi rittzy, I have your same problem. One of four Turnigy Multistar 30A OPTO reflashed with kda.hex get extremely warm after a minute of running motor. It's very strange because the other 3 pieces working fine (flashed with same SimonK fw). |
|
Make sure you check to see what MOSFET design they are using. If it's the TPC8123 one then try and flash the kda_8hz firmware as it seemed to work for a lot of people. |
|
Sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find the kda_8khz.hex fw file, were I can download it ? |
|
Are you using the KKMulticopter Flashtool to flash the ESC? I have attached a screenshot of the drop down menu's you need to click in order to show the SimonK repository where the firmware files are. If you don't use this method let me know.
|
|
Thank you very much. Regards
|
|
Let me know how it goes and if it works for you. Cheers Chris |
|
Here's a link to the hex files if you want to download them, It's the latest from 9/30/14 |
|
Yea, after some tests in the laboratory, seems that kda_8kha.hex fix the overheating problem on the 1 of 4 my Multistar 30A opto ESC. So, seems that you save my ESC with this fw. My doubt now: I have to re-flash also the other 3 ESC with the kda_8khz.hex in order to have the same fw on all ESC ? What do you think about that ? |
|
I was told in an earlier post that it is possible to mix different firmwares as they should perform no differently but the only way to find out is to try. I have two ESC's with the TPC8123 fet on it and even after flashing the kda_8khz they are still warm so I'm not too sure about them but my other ESC's are fine. |
|
Hi, i have problem with Multistar 30A SBEC ESC. My ESC have TCPA 8012-H, this version: http://0x.ca/sim/esc/HK_9351000004/ |
|
Just for the record. |
|
@turorit I recently bought a Turnigy SK450 with 20A multistars & flashed one of the esc's with kda_nfet.hex. Turns out its a mixed P/N model with 4407A and 8020. See attached pics for anyone with same model so they don't make same mistake I did :) http://postimg.org/image/eny28qmxt/ Cheers So how did you solve the problem? Can you please tell me ? I have same Quad and ESCs. I want to flash those with simon k. |
|
@iamsarthakjoshi |
|
@turorit Thanks again! :) |
|
@iamsarthakjoshi Cheers |
|
@turorit Does the ECSs work great after you flash them? I found a guy flashing the same Multistar 20A ESCs with audrino on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIk_h52rx8g) and they surprisingly worked. |
|
@iamsarthakjoshi ESCs work well after flashing, but to be honest I haven't noticed much of a difference between the multistar's and the reflashed f20a's. This might just come down to my P/I gains & general inexperience with quads/escs etc. Happy tinkering! |
|
can anyone halp me with right firmware for those esc?
they are from sk450 turnigy multistar sbec 4a 2-4lixx |
|
Hi bla66 , did you solve it? Even I'm searchin the right firmware for the multistar 20a from turnigy sk450 (hobbyking). I bought the atmel tool and usbasp, but don't know if to use the kda.hex or the kda_net.hex , can someone who have the same model can help me? thank you |
|
hey mamak1n I have bought like you atmel tool and usbasp and i tried both kda.hex and kda_net.hex and ends up in burning the motors...so dont use any of them I didn`t find any other useful software so i will buy this esc http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=15202&aff=754418 when i install and try them i will update the post |
|
thank you for reply and for advise me, so I will not buy the atmel cable, I found 4 esc with already simonk firmware on ebay for a total of 20 euro , the same cost of the atmel tool 👍 |
and others
I'd flashed the Turnigy Multistar 30A (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__25365__Turnigy_Multistar_30_Amp_Multi_rotor_Brushless_ESC_2_4S.html) with kda.hex and it's getting very hot after a few seconds.
One of my ESC burned down and after it my Motor, too.
I'd tried different versions since 2012 and they all have the same problem.
Thank you for fixing this issue.
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: