Armour Value Changes

[Steelpoint]

This PR puts forward several armour defense value changes I wish to propose.

As a forword, nothing in this PR is fixed and all is subject to change. This PR is meant to show case my proposed PR changes, and justification, as well as to facilitate discussion on this issue. My position is clear in that I feel the current armour defense is too little.

I know this will be controversial but I wish to get some good discussion out of this, so leave the shitposts to singulo please.

Also, this PR currently only touches armour used by station personal, I feel antagonist armour is very strong as is but no one has discussed if antag armour should be changed.

Overall I feel enough people agree that current armour is too weak to at least allow for a PR of this kind to exsist to generate discussion and see if we make make armour a bit better. My proposals don't boost armour back to the pre-nerf days, but they take them to a nicer middle ground.

Link to relevant forum thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6763

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Following changes are effected.

Armour Vest+Helmet
Old Value: melee = 25, bullet = 15, laser = 25
New Value: melee = 40, bullet = 30, laser = 30 (Vest is 30)

(This affects Security Officers, Detective, The Warden, the HoP and the Bartender)

Reasoning: The main justification here is the buff to the bullet protection, a direct hit on the chest or head will deal 30% less damage, in cases of weapons like the Revolver this will force the attacker to either aim for the external limbs or to hit the target a third time to crit someone wearing a armour vest.

Security Officers will take three revolver rounds to crit instead of two. The melee boost also gives reasonable protection to a wearer unless external limbs are being targeted. Laser protection is only a minor boost for consistency

HoS Jacket + Beret
Old Value: melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30
New Value: melee = 60, bullet = 50, laser = 50 (50 melee for jacket)

Reasoning: The HoS is meant to represent the best of security, and his old defense values were barely better than a stock armour vest. These new values will mean it'll take some real considerable effort to kill the HoS (or just stun him and strip him).

I feel currently the HoS, considering him being the most targeted and stress inducing job on station, is very squishy against attacks. I believe this buff will go a long way into making the HoS far more durable.

Bulletproof and Riot Helmet have both had their values buffed to match the Chest pieces values.
So Bulletproof Helmet from 40 to 80
And Riot Helmet from 41 to 60.

[Steelpoint]

Also this PR complies with the new rules of the Freeze.

[optimumtact]

Lets try to keep it civil

[WJohn]

Third time's the charm, right?

Or is this the fourth?

I've lost count.

[lzimann]

who really cares about armor tbh, just rush everyone without caring

[Cebasiz]

it doesn't bother me. does anyone think that sec is too strong?

antagonists have surprise and powerful weapons on their side, and something does need to be done about sec population.

at least, i don't think it'll break things horribly so why not give it a try.

if it somehow manages to break anything atrociously it can always be reverted, compromised and re-PRed.

[Steelpoint]

Right now I think security is at its worst population wise.

All Security roles have some of the lowest popularity rates in the game and I'm often seeing (on Sybil at least) rounds with forty or fifty people with barely one or two people in Security.

Security is just not a popular role at all and I think these small buffs may help at least give a nice protection boost to security players.

[Bawhoppen]

I'd be fine with a security buff after coiax finishes datum antags (i believe in him), but armor isn't the way I'd want to do that, I'd be fine with a minor armor buff atleast

Also what about SWAT armor you gonna fuck with that

[Steelpoint]

SWAT armour is not something normally found on station.

With respects to datum antags, I'll wait until I see it. If datum antags massively shifts the balance paradigm of the game far enough it can be just as easy to alter these figures after the fact.

Until then I'm doing this with the game we have now, not the game we may have months down the line.

[Bawhoppen]

coiax is a madman its going to be merged before you think

also SWAT armor is ordered like every wardec ops, but it is pretty good already

[PKPenguin321]

Armor is fine 👎

[Steelpoint]

How so PKP?

Why do you believe station armour is fine as is?

If you honestly think security should be squishy and barely be able to take one or two more hits in general to die then that's a valid position to hold, I just believe that continuing down this road is just driving good veteran players away from security.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

@Imagebard

Yeah the vest should be stronger. I'm not sure riot and HoS armour need to be stronger though

[PKPenguin321]

I think armor is fine because it is. Sec is more durable than regular crew but not walking tanks. This is as it should be, and it is fine.

[Boredone]

So, quick complaint. With the current values, HoS gear is Riot Armor+, same melee defense and coverage on both, but HoS gear has more defense against other stuff as well.
While I can understand making their armor tough, just as good as the specialized gear?
Though checking, Cappy's armor actually already had the same value, just didn't cover everything. Huh.
Also, you didn't touch the Warden and HoS's hats, most likely cause they are in the Job file instead of the Helmet file.

[Supermichael777]

The vetren sec players left 2 years ago. its a wasteland now

[Steelpoint]

I'm of the school that the HoS should not need to swap out his uniform sans for getting his unique Hardsuit.

It is true that melee wise there's no reason to swap out of the HoS Jacket with my proposed values, but with the Laser Proof and Bulletproof armour there is a reason.

[Steelpoint]

Also this PR is not making Riot Armour more stronger than what its got, its simply making the helmet match the armour values. Since beforehand what's the point of having 60 def chest when your head is 20 points or so weaker and anyone would just aim for the head by default?

[Steelpoint]

Razharas, I already put up a fix PR before hand as part of the freeze rules.

[Steelpoint]

#18098 is the fix I put forward, it was just merged very fast.

[Steelpoint]

Any further thoughts on this PR?

I feel it at least warrants a brief run period, it can be easily reverted if we find security to be far too durable to antagonists.

[pudl]

My thought is that jumpsuit armor should be removed and armor buffed to compensate.

[pudl]

Also @Steelpoint maybe a new feature for armor would be a1? Im thinking of smaller caliber bullets not being able to pierce standard armor so for a small time antag like a traitor they have to get armor piercing bullets, but nuke ops or a ling can completely supersede it

[Jalleo]

I think this is a fair compromise since there is limb decapitating now.

[optimumtact]

@Shadowlight213 @Jordie0608 @MrStonedOne @KorPhaeron

Requesting 4 day game poll with support/no support/don't care
options thank you.

If at the end support > no support this pr will be merged, don't care votes will be discarded

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

I'd rather just buff vests and not give near melee immunity with 0 slowdown out to everyone.

It won't make security any better off when dealing with antags (guns, slips, stunprods) but it will fuck with things that rely on melee with no stuns (cult constructs, stands, lavaland, I think some clock cult stuff, and I'm sure plenty more).

Buffing armour against straight melee damage (the weakest kind of attack in the game) just seems counter intuitive to me. It's almost never just straight melee attacks that take me out when I'm security, unless it's an RNG knockout, and that bypasses armour anyway.

The potential upsides just don't seem worth the potential downsides.

[Steelpoint]

The melee immunity is only conferred to the HoS. Rest is to the Riot Armour.

40 melee protection on just the torso and head is a good defense, but only for melee I feel is fine. Don't forget you can still aim to decap the arms or legs which are not covered by the vest.

Cult Constructs have a LOT of advantages over sec, the Wraiths can jaunt very rapidly, the Jugg's are nearly immune to laser weaponry and the Constructs have a inbuilt Magic Missile. Lavaland is irrelevant as Ash Walkers versus Security is hilariously one sided outside of low pop and the Clock Cult has a whole bunch of stuns and powerful items.

If 40 melee for the vest is too much I can drop it to 30 to match the Bullet and Laser defense.

[Steelpoint]

I mean if we're going pure maths then I should point out weapons like the Esword already have Armour Piercing so they already ignore basically most melee defense to start with.

Security should not be that vulnerable to grey shirts with make shift spears by themselves, and you can still decap or impale sec.

[Bawhoppen]

did you know you can do incremental change? buff it a tiny bit, then buff it again in another PR, I know the reason we don't think to do this is because psychologically it seems like its even worse, but if we make it commonplace it would be a good standard to follow

[Steelpoint]

I think bigger changes first, followed by incremental changes after, would be better. Having a large sudden change to something makes the change more noticeable and impactful, thus more likely to get better feedback (or feedback in general)

People are less likely to notice a change effected over several months in very small incremants, versus one sudden change in a single PR followed by other PR's that change the numbers based on feedback.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

I meant PVE mobs on lavaland. You put on a riot suit roundstart with these new numbers and you'll be essentially immune to most of those creatures. Very cheap in cargo as well.

I'll merge a buff for the vest (whether raising values or making it cover arms and legs) and I'd merge a buff for security hardsuit armour bullet values but I think riot and HoS are fine as is

[Steelpoint]

I'm disappointed, the HoS's armour is barely any different to a standard vest, sans it covers more of the body and has actual laser defense.

I'm also disappointed no one even went with oranges idea of a in game poll, or at least a trial. Those are easy to do now days.

[Steelpoint]

Also if I were to buff the sec armour vest to what you propose it would be almost literally identical to the HoS's jacket.

Also I DID NOT BUFF RIOT ARMOUR! I just made the helmet match the chest values.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

I guess I misread then. Sorry.

I still think only the vest really needs a change, I would merge such a PR if you made it alone.