Puts the AI back in its place #20529
Conversation
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This will probably get denied for the same reasons as last time |
optimumtact
added
Balance
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@optimumtact Last time Kor reverted it to avoid problems with the gravity generator. This time i moved the generator out of bombable range. |
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I also told Cheridan last night when he asked for you that this is still uncomfortably close to the singulo/tesla wiping it out as soon as its released. AI concerns (stronger when station aligned and surrounded by sec, weaker when antag) still exist as well. The whole zone will also be a one stop shop for the nuke ops to completely fuck every station system in ~2 minutes from the southwest entry point. Letting people who have not connected for literally over a year to make large balance changes seems a bit odd as well. But I also have not played the game very much in the past month so I don't really feel invested to argue much about it, I'll leave the final decision up to someone else. |
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didnt even tell me about that time to kill cheridan who wants to help |
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Did you map merge? |
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yep |
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The gravgen on this map change is not really any closer to sing than it is on meta. |
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Too many sensitive structures too close together, same problem as before. Gravity would go out immediately on most/all engine releases (it may be literally unavoidable if it's the tesla). It's bad being there on metastation too. |
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Incoming has a point, the tesla was massively buffed since the last time this PR was made. I think the grav gen would be in range to just explode immediately. |
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As ive asked many, many times before, where would you think it could go instead |
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Maybe above chapel in that empty area. It'd be kind of a weird place lore wise, but less disastrous from a gameplay standpoint |
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Can you give me a reference image? I dont know how you could access that area from the hallway, unless youre fine with the grav gen being connected to maintenance |
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Please do not merge this. The Sat is a much nicer place that is also roomier and less cramped. There is not a need for this change. |
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It was already polled and it won by a landslide |
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So did beards and returning Secborgs, yet here we are, without either: http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php (second and third entries) |
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beard and secborgs were removed as administrative hassles and poor designs, so player feedback was not considered as much. |
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@pudl polls ran 3 months ago do not reflect players now |
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yes it does |
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I'd like to see this at the very least tried out for a little bit, maybe a few days. If nothing else it'll highlight the pros and cons of an on-station centralized AI versus an external sat. |
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We already did try this for a few days, its basically down to yelling opinions now |
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@KorPhaeron We tried it and the poll was in favor by quite a bit |
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Yeah exactly, was my point |
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@kevinz000 its not a nerf |
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yas bitch yas |
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@pudl I didn't leave a comment with my downvote because I figured you'd understand that I didn't like the pull request and most of what I'd say has been said.
Yes, the AI used to be in the center of the station. But balance changes have been made and since then with it's current location in mind and the crew has new/more equipment at their disposal. From the staff meeting room you can get into the core with a single broken window/grille (assuming you don't have access to the room) and one c4/thermite. Then introduce the AI and it's apc to your choice of emp or explosives.
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Self up thumbing is fine so long as we continue to take reddit thumbs seriously |
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Traitor ais are now easy to kill with just some thermite only takes 2 tiles if you do it right |
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@kevinz000 Your mindset is exactly what im trying to act against. Look at the ai sat from before Wjohnston redesigned it. Theres a pic of it here. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ob0up0zh9w1l1ae/fullbox.png Notice something? It has two less turrets than my design. Now look at the pr for Wj's redesign that we currently use. #14263 Huh, not a single comment about the fact that it insanely buffed the AI core? Thats because people want buffs and they grow used to them so theyre harder to remove. Its called powercreep. People act like the idea of going back to how it used to be would be the end of the world, when we functioned perfectly fine before it. And no, the game hasnt changed so much that reverting to Steels ai core, for example, would break something. The turret setup i made was livetested, and i have no clue how you could in any way think that its worse than wjs. The two turrets defending the upload computers can hit you from the door, just like the turrets on the current ai core. The ai core itself, has turrets that hit you from the door. If you step back to avoid them, theres a blast door that can be closed so the ai can defend itself. Also the current ai core can also be done in with two ion blasts, because the apc is in the exact same place. The problem is that the ion rifle shouldnt even fucking exist in the first place, it sucks. @Cheridan @MrStonedOne back me up pls. Also people keep ignoring what i mean when i say it isnt a nerf. The word "rebalance" exists for a reason. If you nerf one thing at the same time as buffing another, then its not a nerf, its a rebalance. Try reading the comments to see whats been insanely buffed for a second??? @Boggart I have played within the year, i last played the day i made this PR. People keep acting like being safe should be a given, when any other antagonist isnt nearly as safe as traitor ai. How about we take this opportunity to be creative? Maybe vent your core to space, flood it with plasma, or have an engiborg to put a door on every tile? All of those solutions handle your problem. And dont try to say that the ai shouldnt have to go through that trouble, because it should. Just like every other antag it should have to do work to be safe, not just have it handed to it on a platter. Also the slippers do fill the entire core. @Kromgar Read above. |
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The AI shouldn't be super safe but this is going to bring back the problem of being outed for core fortifications by being heard through the wall and/or the CE walking past with his scanner on meson mode. Yes, you can kill the AI on the sat with the ion gun too, but it's not right next to such an easily broken into room. |
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How about we solve this solution: Remove the ion rifle from the armory, like everyone thinks it should be |
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"Everyone" |
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allura just go away nobody wanted you to come back go to hippie they will like your ideas of balance |
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But the thing is, the current AI core on box has the AI protected by a final door and turrets that can be set on lethal if it is subverted/traitorous for a last ditch attempt. This does not and puts it in ion rifle range. The secondary kill hallway APC is also protected behind windows so that you need to break into maintainence to hit it. |
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@kevinz000 Something doesnt have to be onscreen to hit it. Run into the room, open the door before you get tased/hit, run back, shoot ion rifle through. Especially easy because the ion rifle can open doors |
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Can the ion rifle open blast doors though? |
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I think so, but if it was changed then its still effortless, just shoot the door and crowbar it and its nigh instant regardless |
the layout is garbage, one engineer without even a hardsuit could get through this whole thing in like 30 seconds the AI headsman brigade already ruined enough, please fuck off |
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flip the ai cell around to face the wall |
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I think I can sum up the change as "buff to nonantag AI, huge nerf to antag AI." |
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Sacrificing a much stronger design, size, robots, and defenses for reliability on players that do not really care much about it. Loss of the second teleporter has not really been mentioned either. That was always the quick option to rescue a dead Asimov AI, so the current design is not exactly unreachable. |
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Fuck it, we'll run another poll and let the masses decide. |
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antag ai's usually get borgs to pull them someplace more secure anyways tho |
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which is possible because the AI's location is remote in the first place your chance of being spotted on bagil lowpop with this setup is still probably over 50% basically, this whole PR is fucking stupid because 1. it's a nerf masquerading as "just a change :^)"
could this be because defending a fixed location is actually impossible for the AI already, and that putting it somewhere else surrounded by enemies with like 1/3 of the defenses may actually make this worse? maybe :^) |
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lol |
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100 comment get! Also, i'm against this PR. It is a full-on nerf, disguised as a change. You honestly have to have something else to offer alongside with this change, if you want to make this go through. EDIT : Also, on another topic, this is the second time you've tried this change. I think that's not allowed, but I'm not so sure. |
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wrong |
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Im gonna fix these conflicts on a day that i dont have work and have energy |
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Probably thursday |
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Maybe he has been playing, and got dunked by an AI, so he decided to try to nerf it to shit :^) |
🆑 wrist
add: AI is back onstation. Gravity generator is now in the southeast corner of engineering.
/:cl:
EDIT: This isn't a nerf.
As we all discovered when this was live tested for a pretty good amount of time, this change is mostly balanced. Onstation AI is harder to kill by nuke ops or other antags that can steal a suit and attack it from space, given that it's in a public location, similarly to how the gravity generator is harder to sabotage right now in its current location.
Antagonist AI is weaker in response to this, because it's easier to hit it from the station. For subverted ais, it's still just as easy to fix them, because the upload has always been on station. But with the upload now being turned to the public hallway, it's easier to upload the access to subvert it... but now the AI can hear you subverting it because it's right next to the upload.
This pretty much means that the change isn't a nerf, it's a rebalance. And after we tested it for a while a lot of people told me it was a welcome change to the meta. There's nothing wrong with something like this since we can revert it a month down the line if it's too unbearable to manage, but I can pretty much guarantee that it'll be good, since it won a poll already.