Cobbduceus: Base Healing C3s Recipe Change (Requires Dept Coop), Omnizine Changes #46909
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ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
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where do we get omnizine tho |
| reagent_state = LIQUID | ||
| color = "#DCDCDC" | ||
| metabolization_rate = 0.25 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM | ||
| metabolization_rate = 2 |
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2 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM != 2
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Dude, 2u/tick is INSANELY fast. Under your changes, a single 5u dose of omnizine from the CMO's hypospray will heal a mere 1.2 points of toxin and oxygen damage and 1.5 points of brute and burn damage. That is PATHETIC. Vaping omnizine will become the only viable way to heal from the chem.
Also, if you want to make the metabolization rate of omnizine 2u/tick, make it equal to 5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM (which is still 2u/tick, but now omnizine's metabolization rate will be changed if REAGENTS_METABOLISM is change (just like how the metabolization rates of almost all other chems would be changed if that were to happen)).
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botany |
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why make single good heals makeable from c2 + omniheal botany will just make griefplants indefinitely and medbay will never get good meds |
It's an easy recipe and forces you to make the C2s for the C3s
you're not, you still have the C2s. Off-base healing is still fully within the realm of chemistry. |
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omnizine only from botany? eeeeeeeeeeh, not sure that's such a great idea if ur other supposed omnizine changes dont change it up enough i fear c3s will literally never be made except for powergamers grinding up station donkpockets to make salacid |
these chems already have very little doping capability, and honestly making them much harder to make without improving them at all seems like pointless difficulty. in other words, why bother having a medbay if it's not fun, they don't have any medical supplies, and nobody wants to play or go there |
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Because after all, having literally anything that heals your booboos without controlled application must be extremely difficult to attain. I get you are trying to make medbay more useful, but now this is way too much. Omnizine should entirely stay with its current damage healing numbers since now its the only passive healing chemical that botany has access to ever since the earthsblood changes. Omnizine for brute and burn is better than salicyclic and oxycodone for light booboos. Maybe make the omnizine chemical for those damage types more like styptic and silver sulfiadizine were? Also, omnizine required for pentetic acid. Do i even need to say how bad of an idea that is? Lets just gate the only good chemical for getting rid of heavy radiation behind something that will happen every like 20 rounds, that wont make the existing problems of kill and clone worse! |
Radiation poisoning and massive rads tend to happen about 1 in 3 rounds in my experience. |
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Alright, so since this uses universal enzyme not as a catalyst but as a consumed reagent in making Trop/Rhig, would you be open to making it cheaper to make enzyme (from biomass) to at least incentivize trades of enzyme for mutagen? |
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What the hell are these changes?? At this point, I'd just throw chemistry in a SM fire and ask Xeno for meds. It's not a matter of omnizine being obtainable from Botany, it's that to make anything usable, you'd have to expect them to regularly ship it. I've been chill with most of your changes so far, but this one just feels a bit too far. My personal opinions aside, this is most certainly one of the ones that require plenty of testing. Also, locking pen acid behind an omnizine wall just means that radiation becomes a much more annoying killer. A situation that I think Terry has been dealing with for quite a few days recently. Eh... maybe it'll encourage chemists to leave their room, or maybe it'll just make them do more meth... who knows. |
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Making pentetic acid require omnizine and thializid as reagents will only make rad flood memes stronger. Currently, the only other way to treat rads chemically is with potassium iodine, which only purges 8 rads a tick. Seiver, at 0 kelvin, will purge 45 rads a tick... spicy skeleton dragging hot canister through the main halls time |
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I do really like the concept of chem having to get reagents from other places but can it PLEASE not be botany, they're the absolute worst department to deal with and all this would do is ensure that these chems never get made, at all, ever. Or maybe chemists would start stealing plant trays. How the tables have turned. (also why nerf calomel, I've never seen anyone use it as anything but a gimmick poison) |
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So with this change chemistry would NEED the help of botany to produce the only useful chems left. But why does botany NEED to help them with this? What incentive does botany have to produce enzyme, tea, omnizine, etc for chemistry? All that would happen is that chem would have to forget about any of these chems completely because they would need an unending source of plants that produce the ingredients to produce chems that will be used up extremely quickly, and botany would just not give a fuck about providing for chemistry because why bother putting effort into it if you dont get a reward |
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Like ultimately the goal should be to do away with the chem dispenser anyway, and that's the endgame of chemistry changes with plumbing will be, but there aren't many sources I can think of outside of lavaland and botany tbh. Like at best you can send some stuff via cargo I suppose. |
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... The end goal is to get rid of the Chem Dispenser? |
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Relying on cargo doesn't solve the problem I had with having to rely on botany - Interdepartmental cooperation doesn't work when one side isn't given any incentive to participate in it. Right now the best example of it working is mining - Miners are given points to buy stuff for bringing in ore, and mining ore is inbetween them and their goal of cool stuff from tendrils or megafauna so they might as well do their job if they have to mine to their destination anyways. Cargo is one of the worst examples of interdepartmental cooperation. Cargo has money they can choose to spend on stuff they benefit from buying, or "waste" the money by spending it on essential stuff for other people. Why would cargo buy stuff for chemistry if it just stops them from buying more guns? Sure you can order it yourself but then the only cooperation is a guy dragging you a crate or just choosing to toss it out into the lobby and leave it there where you can just hope you notice its there before someone decides to just steal it |
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hold up, people used to argue that botany was super dependent on mutagen, wtf has changed? You can't slice this toast on both sides |
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they still are but now they have bargaining power for chem. The issue with mutagen balance is chem can function w/o botany but botany "can't" function without chem. Now both have bargaining power unless you just give botanists the dispenser. |
Except you just approved a pr to add saltpetre and mutagen to the biogen cobby which ends up making this a bit of a moot point.. |
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750 nutrient to get 30u mutagen isn't a good conversion ratio. You're still very much wanting to work with chemists. |
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Only a tiny bit, anyway why bother when a botanist can just tide their own chem dispenser? There is far less reason to work with chemists than you would expect in the current state. |
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why bother with what? If someone is moonlighting you and you don't care that's not my problem lol. If for some reason you don't care to make C3s and botany doesn't have plans on giving you the omnizine necessary to make C3s, you still have access to C2s (which aren't even bad) on top of non-chemical healing methods. |
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Excellent strawman use there Oranges, Chemistry and botany both require things from each other but at different times and also in different amounts. When botany needs mutagen they can't produce the ingredients chemistry requires. When botany is capable of producing the ingredients they have no reason to help chemistry because they have all they need. Chemistry needs an unending supply of the ingredients while botany needs a much smaller amount. Give botany a couple beakers of mutagen and some saltpeter and they are good forever. They can even begin producing mutagen themselves. But chemistry will need massive amounts of ingredients from botany over the entire shift. 100 units of omnizine would produce 5 just basic 20u sal acid brute patches which will quickly run out. You would need another 100 to produce 5 20u oxandrolone burn ones along with it. |
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Botany can get their own chem dispensers, they can also make their own mutagen even without getting a dispenser by making blumpkins or other shit that make mutagen. Yeah they are dependent on Mutagen to do anything fast enough to count in the round, but Chemistry is not the only way to get Mutagen for botanists |
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To be fair, botany isn't the only method to get omnizine, but the other sources are extremely shit especially compared to the ease botany has with getting mutagen. |
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no one stops anyone from replacing omnizine with peptides for "healing" food |
Understatement, it is way worse than nutriment, vitamin, all the juices. It 's useless as an actual medicine. |
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I still can't see this ending well. Chemist culture is already "fuck you, got mine" and adding more layers between getting them to help Medbay do it's job effectively is a bad call in my opinion. Yes, Sal/Oxan/Pentetic were too easy to make but this is too much - again, why would I want to make oxandrolane when aiuri is easier to make, just as effective and doesn't require resources that I don't have? In addition, calomel does not need a recipe adjustment, it's barely used as it is and the adjustment means it'll never be used now. Why make calomel when pentetic does its job too and does it better? |
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Maybe make a chemical which is just omnizine with the old metabolization rate and old toxin and suffocation healing? That would solve the problem of this making things like syndicate smokes, ambrosia deus/lifeweed smoking and the hypospray useless. |
Just nerf regen jelly and put it in stuff that had omnizine previously. Would fix the issue with alternate omnizine sources to. |
It doesn't have the associated downsides and they can be combined for more upfront healing.
Tea is accessible from coffee machines. It also has no downsides if you're below a certain health threshold. If you have access to omnizine you can make penetic, but you could also combine both penetic and calo for when someone needs a lot of reagents purged and fast.
CMO can demote people if they're not working cooperatively with the department. That's really the only way to fix that too, I don't think changes should be held hostage to "well chemists are shitlers".
They're fictionally named but their suffixes tell you what damage type they do (well new ones, existing ones use their old names). I'm of the belief that having reagents be bound to realism makes it difficult to manipulate them because "that's not how they work in real life". Making them fictional allows for more creative liberties and tweaking, although I can see how someone interested in chemicals from an IRL pov might find this not as enjoyable as working with chemicals they're familiar with and can apply that knowledge into the game. I don't really see a difference in looking up a chem IRL vs. looking it up within the chemical wiki, barring the fact that looking it up from an IRL source still doesn't tell you what it does ingame (IE Salycilic acid doesn't heal you more if you're damaged IRL). |
There is no endgame for a chemist, nor is it exactly "high-level" to make C3s. Like I keep saying, chemistry's depth is only horizontal which is the variety of chems they can make. Beyond that there is literally nothing for a chemist. The fact chemistry is based entirely around a single machine's existence and they can do everything required within the framework of that machine (and consequently anyone else who has access to one of these machines can basically moonlight them entirely) is certainly an issue i'd like to look at, but not really in scope of my medical changes. You can effectively be a better chemistry in botany now already since you have access to omnizine and earthsblood (even post EB-nerf), but no one until this PR has said a word about that... |
This is actually a concerning thought. For multiple reasons. 1, it hints at one of the fixes to this being something along the lines of "Make chem dispensers have access requirements", which is not a change in gameplay that I think is befitting /tg/. Save for various computers, bots, airlocks and APC's/Air Alarms, NOTHING in this game technically requires ID access to toy with. Your Virologist could suddenly work as the chef, and the Warden is now trying to stabilize the SM... This idea that chem dispensers should be restricted that I can just see floating about in some heads here is not the solution, and truth be told, even if it did end up being that way, if I truly were hell-bent on making C3's despite these changes, I'd consider just moving my entire chem lab to botany anyhow. I'm sure they wouldn't mind since they wouldn't have to tide for their chem dispensers.
That being said, if such a thing were to come, this theoretically could only bring us back full-circle to the original issue of mid-combat healing drugs, which was one of the various reasons that instigated Cobby chems in the first place and made us faze out Silver Sulfadiazine and Styptic Powder.
The new botanists will probably grow what's asked of them, but they might not maintain them or maximize their returns from it, making them unreliable, and the veterans know that should they not listen, they've probably got enough prickly plasmeme mutation toxin apples to deal with any shitters who demand anything of them, even if such a thing could be seen as antagonistic. A few will probably make wheat and tomatoes just to keep the only guy who might have proper access to their department pacified just so they can keep growing stuff that makes the Little Shop of Horror look like a orchid family shop run by an old lady. In short... interdepartmental interaction is a shit-show if the departments don't have direct access to one-another. This is SS13, where it's not surprising to find shitty gamers. Miners share a radio channel with the scientists, and they still aren't guaranteed mining tech despite all the reeing they can pull off. (Mining is dangerous work. Screw those nerds for not helping right?) Still, regardless of whether the scientists are good or bad, they and the miners rely on one another, at least once. Once the scientists research and upgrade, the miners share no obligations to assist them anymore. It is merely given based off of the nature of their work. So, why not just... make something similar instead of requiring a constant dependence? Make a new batch of chems that's used in these recipes, and gate it behind research and machine tech, while keeping omnizine recipes as alternative but much quicker methods to make the C3's. In the end, I'm all for more tedium if it means that I can still do what I need to do, and if I tire of that, I'd appreciate a quick solution should the other parties assist... |
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Increasing the metabolism rate 20 times while decreasing the amount healed is indeed as ridiculous over nerf. Also, this practice of marking snarky comments as "disruptive" and the larger trend of babyfying online discourse is a bit silly to me. Grown ass men should not have to be shielded against pointed comments. |
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@ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone You're missing my point, Oxandrolane's not good enough on its own to out-compete Aiuri and is outright worse if the patient has less than 40 of the specific damage. Not having side-effects isn't a good enough reason to use it, it has to be better for me to want to make. The only chem worth making out of the whole bunch is pentetic and that's becuase nothing else does what it does as well. Oxandrolane and Salicyclic Acid should be equally as good as Pentetic if this is the direction you're going in. In addition, Chemists do not make chemical cocktails for the general populace, they make pure chems because it's very fiddly to make those custom-tailored patches/pills, trying to mass-produce them is a massive hassle. Seriously, compare how long it takes to make a 10u Salyclic acid patch compared to a 5u libital/5u granibulatari patch and you will see a massive difference in time taken. And I'm still going to harp on about calomel, this change means chemists won't ever make it, not that they did much before, simply because it needs multiver, which already is a purgative (albeit a crappy one). Why leave the lab to get tea (which would come out of my own money) to make calomel when I can just stuff so much multiver down your throat that it achieves the same effect without the downside (and for free)? The only use I see it is for non-chemists doing ghetto chemistry, which would be fine, but I don't understand why the original recipe had to go, Miner's Salve has two recipes so there's no reason calomel can't have two. The long and short of my point is this, if you're altering the recipes to make the C3's harder to acquire, they need to be outright better in every way or else they'll just be like they were before when bicardine/kelotane existed. Sal acid and oxan were still better but the average person didn't make them because bicard/kelo were easier to make, people will do whatever has the least effort to get the reward. |
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Maybe we could make a new chem that heals liver damage? Then an aiuri + oculine mix for burn and a libital + new liver-chem mix for brute would work as decent tier-2 meds while still not being too easy for chem? |
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To be honest, I don't really know what these people calling c2 meds "poisonous" are on about. They USED to be incredibly bad for you, but they've been buffed to the point where their downsides are negligible (who cares about how much organ damage you have if it's not enough to make the organ fail or otherwise negatively impact you in a severe way?). I'm not a chemist main, though, so feel free to correct me on this. |
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Does this apply to the Omni packets from xenobio |
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As a CMO player, I think I will just stroll on down to cargo, order several med-kits, and let chemistry and botany do whatever they want for the rest of the round. Why does botany need to cooperate with chemistry so much? Botany feels closer tied to chemistry than medical does to chemistry. I don't understand the point of creating department cooperation that just slows down gameplay with no benefits, especially when the interaction has an easy alternative. That being any head can go to cargo and buy meds and make this system of interaction obsolete. |
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@Krysonism side bar, but I am not tolerating snark any more on github, we should keep it entirely professional. Emotional outbursts are in no way conducive to figuring out peoples actual concerns. While it might have been supported previously given the new moderation tools I am acting to curb such things. People who make emotive arguments, or snarky mean comments are going to get trashed, and ultimately, banned from the repo. Everyone here has better things to do than read them and they just blot out the people who are actually contributing useful points to the discussion. I want to keep discourse laser focused on the actual impacts of code changes, not on how much someone thinks another person's actions or behaviour is ruining their life |
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@optimumtact You said that you wanted concrete evidence that most botanists are new. I know that this is from THE FORBIDDEN SITE, but someone actually made a straw poll to ask botanists how they get their mutagen. The results show that a good proportion of our botanists have not yet achieved botanical mastery: https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/dejamq/botany_strawpoll/ |
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Hopefully you don't mind me floating out a suggestion that might work Cobby. You could make omnizine reactable/producible in chemistry at a really low reaction rate (0.05u per tick or something, I can send you synthtissue as an example that exists) with a pH drift and temperature drift so it requires a bit of babying. Meaning that Chemists have a way to get Omni if botany is empty, but botany will always be faster. You could also make it so the pH window is very tight, so that Omni purity is never 1 when reacted without constant micromanagement, ensuring that botany omni is the optimal method if you still want to enforce that. |
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ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
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Do Not Merge
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Huge mining nerf tbh Yall pretend like hugbox and botany wouldn't steal or build dispensers, I also completely agree with carshalash, why make anti rad meds harder to make? |
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I'm not interested in this specific approach and will be drafting an alternative. |
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About The Pull Request
Why It's Good For The Game
Recipe Changes
C3s perks are that they are freely dopable within the range of their OD. Rather than nerfing their healing thoroughput, I decided to hit the availability.
They are however easier to make once the departmental coop takes place. This is intended.
If it is now difficult to heal a damage I will look at the C2s since they're meant to be the stronger trade-off chem anyways.
Omnizine Change
I ramped up the metab so that it's not as good as a solo healer unless you have a LOT. It should now be mainly used for the variety of recipes that now use it.
Overall these changes are meant to encourage use of the C2s/Surgery and pull chemistry out of the 1stop shop zone.
Feedback Appreciated
Changelog
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balance: Base Damage Healers w/o downsides now are locked behind some form of departmental interaction (mainly botany).
balance: Base Damage Healers w/o downsides now are mostly omnizine + equivalent C2 (IE sal acid is omni+libital)
balance: See PR #XXXXX for detailed changes
/:cl: