most laser and energy weapons are bigger, lethal lasers are cheaper

[tralezab]

About The Pull Request

Nearly all guns except the security disabler is large, meaning it can't fit in backpacks.

Why It's Good For The Game

The main problem this is trying to solve is stopping people from holding a large majority of the armory, bypassing ammo restrictions and also letting one person clear out the entirety of security's options in stopping station threats.

I realize this may need a follow up in the form of the highly forbidden locker nerf, but I'm trying to atomize and I have a design doc in the works for the whole shebang anyway

Changelog

🆑
balance: ups the size of eguns and lasers
/:cl:

[tralezab]

By the way while I was making this last night I logged in to get the type path if the energy gun and I watched one person steal every single laser and egun in the armory so intensely pottery

[spessbro]

maybe this is nitpicking but the shouldn't the retro laser and oldstation prototype lasers also get nerfed?

[tralezab]

There's an okay argument for it, it's just a bunch of space loot that you can stack a ton of. I might!

[Barhandar]

The retro laser is loot that you can't get much of and Charlie laser has like 3 shots on full clip.

[TheBonded]

Can I get a link to the new sprites please?

[tralezab]

@Barhandar yeah it's not in scope of this pr anyway it's just food for though for me right now

[itseasytosee]

Balance aside, the sprites look like a joke. I'd be less opposed if they kept there original sprites and the side was just changed.

[tralezab]

If @Twaticus disapproves of them i'll just delete the dmi changes and it will revert back to the originals. i made them to be more intuitive for players to decern size of a weapon upon picking them up, not to make them uglier. and so, i'm willing to revert if needed

[TheBonded]

I am unable to view the sprites on mobile, can I get an imgur link or something?

[tralezab]

I'll show what the armory looks like

[Cyprex]

The short bulky/fat look for energy weapons was nice, rifle+shotgun looks much thinner. It was a good way to differentiate them. Anyway I wouldn't change sprites

[tralezab]

gonna give it one more go and see if it survives okay

[tralezab]

eh, i couldn't make something i was happy with. i'm going to revert sprite changes

[ATH1909]

Isn't being larger than lasers one of the biggest drawbacks of shotguns in comparison to them? And isn't "doesn't have to worry too much about ammo" one of the largest upsides of lasers? Why would I ever use a laser gun when I can use a combat shotgun with slugs instead? Even if you dual-wield lasers (40 damage per "shot", assuming they both hit), they still won't be able to out-DPS a combat shotgun loaded with slugs (50 damage per "shot", assuming they each hit), unless the combat shotgun has a longer cooldown time between shots that I'm not aware of.

Tbh, taking up the same amount of space as a box already makes carrying more than one energy gun in my backpack (along with the one in my suit storage slot) something that I don't normally do. In other words, you ALREADY can't hold the vast majority of the armory in your backpack (unless you have a bag of holding).

[tralezab]

Seems like more of an issue with shotguns than lasers, the game shouldn't be balanced around people carrying 4 guns

[tralezab]

And for the record, boxes shouldn't even be able to fit in backpacks

[Iamgoofball]

@tralezab that's a nuclear take, internals are a thing

[anconfuzedrock]

a laser gun has enough ammo to do a total of 240 damage if you never miss, in a game where people move so fast that it's impossible to aim. energy weapons are balanced around the fact that you can carry more guns instead of carrying more ammo.

[tralezab]

i'd be okay with the idea of increasing damage or battery

[JMoldy]

This is a bizarre choice when most laser weapons are already more on par with pistols, and pistols aren't really a common thing for non-traitor crew to get. It'd add more variety to the game to make the e-gun the e-rifle and give it a substantial magazine boost and a size increase and 2hand requirement while the laser gun gets changed to the laser pistol and had the projectile changed to the 15-burn one. The e-gun already looks like it's designed as a carbine or PDW.

[Rohesie]

Let's test this. We can always tweak things depending on how this results.

[tralezab]

@JMoldy That's the future goal. https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/ByAVCfu8w

[Kendrickorium]

no matter what server I play on, this is always a shit design decision. Anyone, command sec grey or antag that cannot fit as many weapons as they can or want to carry will simply hide space or otherwise get rid of said weapons so that they are still the only ones with the majority.

All this ever does is make it that much harder for people who just want to carry a spare disabler

[Kendrickorium]

OH adding to this, this RARELY happens on any kind of high population. perhaps change the amount of guns that spawn to be proportionate to the crew members ?

[itseasytosee]

@saprasam Why are you so mad if you think the change is so insignificant? The hardly an inconvenience of having to give up your belt slot?

[itseasytosee]

I'm in it makes more sense in both a balance a realistic sense and doesn't have any real downsides outside of the removal of edge scenarios which are unintended in the first place. It improves the systems of the game in the way that the average person can not carry 6 or more rifles on their person so why should spessmen?

[wesoda25]

I like this change, but as always, I am not a fan of the staggered implementation.

[Pugie]

This is a sec buff it's easier to see when others have lethal weapons.

[Mothblocks]

Yep, intentional.

[optimumtact]

big if true

[TacticalSpacePilot]

I really hate this change. For one, can you at least make HOS gun fit in backpack? He starts with 1 energy gun plus his HOS gun so you're forced to keep it on belt slot and put your security belt in your backpack, which is counter intuitive. (Also why do belts fit in bags but guns don't)

[itseasytosee]

I can fit a belt in a backpack in real life but not a gun. Put the gun in your armor slot.

[TacticalSpacePilot]

Yes but HOS starts with 2 guns.

[optimumtact]

have you tried putting one away in a locker

[KathrinBailey]

Believe me when I say it, shotguns are not long for this world

On a downstream I made the improvised shotgun require two hands to fire to make being on the other side of the barrel a consistent experience, not sure if it's the same on TG but you could look into doing this across all of the shotguns, or some system that reads the weight class of what you have in your offhand, if it's w_class TINY or nothing, it can fire, else you can't fire.
The main reason was that you could just pull two sawn-offs from your backpack, do some sort of pimp swagger walk up to someone, click on their tile and they're in soft-crit with seemingly little counterplay.
(I also did some sprite work on them and turned them into rifles for the firing action so I could make it feel like a break-action shotgun)

Dunno if that helps, making it so you can't Master Chief dual-wield guns all the time does make gunplay more consistent; it also makes balancing a tad easier since you don't have to worry about stuff being overpowered if you dual-wield it or too unviable because it's balanced around not being too overpowered if you dual-wield it.

[Mothblocks]

OP's design doc on guns can be found here.

[TacticalSpacePilot]

have you tried putting one away in a locker

The point is that HOS is naturally a step up from regular sec officers, now they're just gonna grab disablers from armory every round.

[antropod]

should nerf x-ray rifles too

they are normal weight class

[itseasytosee]

A bit late, huh?

[antropod]

yep