[Testmerge Only] [No React Randys] Removes the paralyse from shoving someone while they are knocked down #81886
Conversation
tgstation-server
added
Balance
MrMelbert
added
the
Test Merge Only
necromanceranne
changed the title
|
Feedback threeead post the big long posts there, not here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35898 |
|
So now you can just lie down in combat to become immune to disarms from shoves? Cause you won't be disarmed from knockdown or shovestun while lying |
|
How will this interact with cuffing people? That's pretty important for various kidnapping objectives, and it's hard to get a baton all the time. (Unless you're going full contractor, I suppose, but I like having an abduction as an option in more circumstances than just that) |
|
You tell me. I'd imagine you would have to put in more effort or use a weapon. |
|
That would make stun meta even worse, with that in game all you can do against someone with any stun item(Baton, Contractor Baton, Telescope, etc) is be a hulk. Removing shove stun without at least reworking main stun tools is certified skill issue. |
|
Melbert promised me that adding 'No React Randys' to my title would ward off people who who downthumb and close out the tab, but I guess he didnt account for the fact that those people have the reading comprehension of a turnip. |
|
Blessed. Whole-heartedly support this change and am eager to test it out. As for the antags/sec having an upperhand with their access to dedicated stun weaponry such as batons, I think it kinda is supposed to be that way rather than everybody running around with a a-few-click-roundender (shove stun + cuff). |
|
Only downside I see to this is it makes it harder to bully clowns roundstart |
|
I don’t think removing unarmed combat features is a good way of going about this. I understand that there is more non lethal methods of pacification but that isn’t really accessible to half the station. I think reducing the stun duration to around 1.5 seconds is a more viable way of doing this without angering the resident tider population. |
|
so instead of right click you just ctrl click or start spamming left click? this basically means you can't non lethally maintain a stun instantly and have to resort to slow lethal punches and grab spamming instead and that the attacked can just instantly pull out a bomb or weapon before being stunned |
|
Sounds good, this particular chain stun is mainly used AGAINST departments and not in the defence of them |
Yes, this change gives people more agency. Can't shove stun someone who was too close to a wall and was talking. Can't pretend shoves are a non lethal joke if they break free now (they were gonna cuff you and kill you in maints) |
|
On one hand, this guts one of the most powerful melee options in the game (telebaton/det baton insta stunlock combo) On the other hand, it nerfs tiders and ghetto combat. I think the only bad thing about floor shove stuns right now mainly is that it doesnt work on people who are in the process of standing back up (filling a do_after to stand up) but doesnt show that do_after to others so it just shows someone on the floor not being stunned by a shove and then immediately getting back up. I think we should flip the script on that, you dont get shove stunned when laying on the floor but if you are in the process of standing back up and someone shoves you, you fall over again, then add an actual indicator for when someone is in the process of getting up off the floor. This is more natural and there is a small window and I think it could be a good compromise. Also probably lower the stupid long cooldown to stand back up how can someone be on the floor for 10 seconds but not stand back up until some arbitrary countdown is done and then they are allowed to try. Being dazed and unable to orientate yourself is one thing but being able to consciously crawl in the direction you want to go and not be able to stop and start getting back up is another. |
you can try to aggressive grab and suplex them I guess? |
actually the opposite since tiders will just shove click grab from #79362 and repeat that over and stun you without even being near a wall, this is going to be terrifying for casual department heads or staff when mutiple tiders with extreme muscle memory or macros stun you since you cant do the shove baton combo or punch grab combo to stop mutiple tiders from stealing everything |
|
I'm like almost certain people won't use unarmed attacks for their stamina damage if they're trying to prevent tiders, given how the damage is a free ticket to an escalation-induced death, but dear god shovestunning is/was an utter cancer upon this game's combat and I've been waiting to see it go for so long. Literally what was even the point of most combat items if your arms did a better job? |
My brother, that questionable beheading removal PR also started as a testmerge-only experiment. |
Well the idea was to even the playing field somewhat. It's never fun to get killed with nothing to do about it. But shoves become the thing people used to do just that. The problem is short TTK anyway (Or i guess time to stun rather than time to kill). But I'd rather have weird shove into grab than whoops get shoves. A modicum more agency.
I haven't seen many "casual heads" actually do that. What i have seen is tiders using shoves to steal telebatons and go to town with those. And their biggest advantage has always been plausible denyability. Can't arrest someone for just shoves, but they will steal all your stuff if you miss one shove too many. Nothing to be done about the people with a gazillion hours, not on this scale anyway.
That sounds like it's gonna put people without any gear at even more a disadvantage. Sure if you have a gun or something you have options. But if you just got random junk you kinda have to stand up or you'll be killed by a funny man with a toolbox moving back and forth next to you.
Resistance in this case is leaving one dislike and not even creating a silly hypothetical to defend your point with i guess. |
|
Not a fan of making unarmed people less able to defend themselves. The paralyze gives the person who earns it a lot of options in a fight, and even with new brawlening stuff gear is still king. Positioning is so critically important to ss13 combat and almost no one thinks about it when they're discussing being robust or combat in general. The paralyze is also incredibly short already, and frankly I think we've done a great job with the feeling of unarmed combat right now. I'd rather not see this go and for people to return to high brute damage weapon meta and just cleavering people until they die |
|
I agree with the above comment, although knockdown w/ disarm and a slowdown short of that is enough honestly... I can live with this. Though, if the goal is to root out stun meta I'd much sooner see batongs nerfed than an inherent ability which assists in dealing with them (and any geared up nerd, really). Ideally, both of them. Ultimately, though, I don't really see how this hurts an unarmed crewmembers chances against someone who is armed, since really one knockdown is enough to level the playing field. Worth seeing a tm yaya |
|
If you're looking to end stun meta, I think this is the wrong place to start. I love the idea of a highly skilled player being hard to approach, even if they have nothing but their hands. This change takes away so much of that ability. The outcome of the fight shouldn't be nearly entirely determined by the gear someone brings to the fight. If your goal is to remove the 'first stun wins' meta. Rather than removing the ability to even gain an advantage, I think you should instead be looking for a way to remove the ability to extend that advantage indefinitely. |
Diminishing returns on floor shoves is a great idea ngl, it would make it so shoves still work as a mean to defend yourself etc or to stun people but if you want a good stun you'd have to invest in proper stun item Stamina damage immunity while stamina critted is also interesting- though im not sure how that'd fair with the batons and disablers |
The main problem with shove stun is that it's not a defensive tool. Once you land it you might as well kill em or cuff (same thing really). And EVERYONE has it. I think this retains the most important part of the shove, the ability to run the fuck away. Not every fight SHOULD be easily winnable with grit and experience. Part of that skill should be knowing how to pick your battles. If anything fights right don't showcase the ""skill"" enough because of how even the playing field is (which means it's incredibly uneven when you do account for different experience levels).
Yea batons are their own bag of worms. But no one really complains about batond in fights with more than 2 people on each sides (And they complain about cult stun in those, rightfully so). So the biggest problem with baton and with shoves is that they come out of nowhere and there's no downside to carrying them. Not like there's anything else precious to carry in your bag. And you got space aplenty. |
|
I don't think is gonna have a major affect on making it harder to chain stuns. If people have a baton just knocking your opponent to the ground to make them simpler to click on for a stun baton is unchanged (honestly if you could shove them, then you could baton them down once. Getting the follow up baton is usually not that difficult). If you're trying to chain non-armed stuns then just shove -> punch them unarmed. The stamina damage from punches and kicks is usually enough to stun lock and follow up with a cuff (which is a whole separate discussion about why the changes they're both did not work and was bad) or a kill. You can remove the paralyze from shoving and effectively nothing changes in terms of unarmed stunning because of the additions made to brawling. The only important question left is if it's better for the game to have these "less than lethal" options, which opens up people to escalation, rather than the physically painless (emotionally devastating) combo of being. Then again only way to really tell is to permanently test merge this on Campbell. |
|
TMing for a week or so (On manuel maybe terry later) because I am fucked up and evil. |
THE END IS NIGH. THE END IS NIGH, ALL MUST MAKE A SACRIFICE TO THE HEADCODER TO SPARE OUR SOULS! /j |
Scared? |
|
Prior to this update, even if someone was already on the floor you could still punch them until you saw the 'knocked down' text or wallshove them to achieve that. You'd then follow up with a paralyze which would disarm them, and punish them for crawling on the fucking floor. Now, with this merged, you cannot do that. Floor people just shoot you with your ranged weapon as you try to run around them, punching, hoping to lower their stam to the point that you get favorable grab RNG. It's awful, feels awful to play with, feels like a gear check, and ontop of that its unrealistic as hell. Absolutely no paranoia or fearing someone who gets ontop of you, there's a reason why cops in real life have that 20 foot rule, because no matter how well armed and armored you are brawls are a crapshoot. This is the crawlening again Edit: For the record this is after playing with it on manuel |
|
After some testing on manny, there is far more emphasis on grab resist RNG. Combat RNG needs to die.
There is no way for me to disarm a player who has laid on the floor other than get an AGGRESSIVE GRAB on them. this is not feasible while they are firing at me or slashing at me. I do understand this is a test merge and you just want to see what strategies come from it. But I do hope we don't continue to go in the direction of 'gear = win'. Unarmed crew shouldn't be a free antag objective |
Man Just wanted an excuse to shove moths repeatedly |
Terry too now |
|
Don't forget to contribute feedback here https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35898 |
|
Thank heck, shove stuns were so cringe and easy |
I don't have sec hours |
|
Spacemens really thinks this pr nerfs stunshove |
|
it... does? What do you think a shove stun is? |
|
Another poor soul equating knockdown with stun |
|
Ngl this just enforces stun baton/prod powergaming. Test merge only or not, it doesnt really help, just makes it worse |
|
Imagine opening a PR that would make batons weaker than just hands. That's why before changing batons we gotta change shoves |
I mean, thats the point of the testmerge. To test that. |
|
The stun meta sucks, but this will just make it worse, i don't see how removing the thing that people without stun gear use to counter stun gear will make stun gear weaker |
their argument appears to be "so we can nerf it later" and by the phrases they used, makes it sound like batongs will just be ever so slightly stronger shoves i know they wont be that weak... I hope, but come on man, are you really getting killed by one guy because he shoved you twice? only ways it happens that fast is if you got your shit kicked in before hand, or you are fighting a guy you shouldnt fight solo (tip: metafriend) |
You do not understand. I am very happy about this because now I can clueless crawl and start hitting everyone with stun baton and no one can take my favorite stun baton away from me by touching me with their dirty assistant hands |
|
Just commenting again to say that heretics can’t kill me as a sec officer with funny hand and blade anymore. The knockdown from their hand just results in me crawling at them with a baton and they can’t really do anything about it. |
|
just forgot but this buffs roach mutants as they get damage resistance while lying down, too bad no one uses the infuser |
|
heretic mains are in SHAMBLES |
they can punch you like once or twice after grasping to stamcrit you, same with contractor baton |
|
As this is no longer being testmerged, please make sure to leave any impressions you had of your experience with it in the linked thread. |
Remember, NO REACT RANDIES!
If you're reacting this PR you MUST contribute to the discussion or be destroyed.
About The Pull Request
If you shove someone while they're knocked down, they will no longer be stunned for 3 seconds.
Why It's Good For The Game
I was talking to a few people that it would be interesting to see how much of the stun meta could be pulled out of the game before the entire combat system starts to fall apart.
This particular mechanic was introduced because too many people (like, one headmin in particular) were worried about the possibility of not being able to remove people from departmental areas without resorting to lethal force. Or, alternatively, that the old disarm stun was an important equalizer for the unarmed/unprepared.
Now, I've done a shitton of work on introducing nonlethal/less-than-lethal methods of combating people unarmed. Namely, grab states being stronger against people who are staggered (such as from being shoved repeatedly), and there being more stamina damage in unarmed attacks. You don't need to bring someone to lethal crit as a result to make sure they can't cause any more problems. I feel like this allows unarmed individuals to both adequately handle departmental invaders (which frankly isn't at all a problem in our current escalation so like, whatever); and should be mostly adequate for people who need to somehow try and take down an armed opponent unarmed.
This is obviously a significant nerf. The current metas almost entirely rely on this particular mechanic to maintain chain stuns. So what would it be like to take it away for a bit? I wanna test that.
If any of you complain about me removing shovestuns despite the testmerge label, please chill, okay? You don't have to beg me not to do this, I literally am just curious. Please approach it in good faith and tell me what it is like in reasonable detail.
Changelog
🆑
balance: Completely removes the 3 second stun after successfully shoving someone who has been knocked down to the floor.
/:cl: