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[mediaqueries-4 ] Deprecate 'speech' media type as well? #1751
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FWIW https://twitter.com/patrick_h_lauke/status/900325928076816384 coming up dry so far... |
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. The current definition of If we want to use it for a set of user agents completely disjoint from visual UAs (e.g. “Siri/Alexa, read me the wikipedia page about strawman arguments”), then it would make some more sense as a media type. Which still leaves us with a question of whether anyone implements that. Either way, it should not stay the way it is. @tabatkins Any thoughts? Who do we get in touch with to know if they are interested in this for pure-speech UAs (not screen readers)? |
Yup, and also noting that screen readers are also used not just by 100% blind users, but those with partial sight as well, and even users with good eyesight but cognitive issues. Plus of course the fact that SRs sit on top of browsers, and the browsers clearly behave as |
I only kept it because it was supposedly what things that used CSS Speech should identify as. If there's no actual use-cases (or the use-cases are all merely theoretical, and all UAs in reality just report "screen" and assistive agents are ok with this), then I'm totally fine with dropping it and just going with the screen/print dichotomy. |
Right, but CSS speech isn't just meant for screen readers (although they can use it was well), but also for UAs that do a pure audio rendition of the document, without any reference to a 2D visual layout. For these, the My googlefu isn't very strong today, but I am pretty sure that there are EPUB UAs that can read the book aloud to you, instead of displaying it. I presume they actually work on marked up text and could support css-speech and this MQ, but I don't actually know and maybe they just work on plain text. We should check with these if they already support this or plan to, or have any kind of feedback about this. |
At the very least, can the spec be updated to not claim "Matches screenreaders" ? Because we do know that that part is not true (in, as far as I'm aware, all current screenreader scenarios). |
Sure, we'll either do that or drop the thing entirely. Either way, we need a WG resolution to make this normative change, so I'd rather get enough info ahead of time and do it right in one go. But if we can't find anything, that tells us what to do. |
Marked as Needs Edits, because we can at least do the "stop claiming this is for screenreaders" part. @frivoal, do you think you have enough data to bring up the rest of the issue to the WG? |
It seems to me that what we’d be looking for is something that does parsing of Style sheets, like a browser does, but then builds its own layout tree (speech tree) after applying the rules. Someone should just write a plug-in to do that. |
Is there any more information needed to bring this to the WG for a decision? |
I've done the edits discussed above (“ I may get to it eventually, but if anybody wants to dive in and report back, that'd be very much appreciated. |
To add to the above, I think the I suspect pure-audio UAs will soon evolves from the various virtual voice assistants (Apple Siri, Google, Amazon Alexa, ..). They have yet to allow browsing an actual HTML web page, but it's not a big leap from the current web-based actions. It'd be nice to have the handling in place to arrange things differently as-needed, once this evolves. |
Results for @media speech CSS query and media=speech on link element https://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/content/media-query-speech/ TL;DR; not implemented in any common screen reader / browser combination Results from the Speech section of http://css3test.com/ for common browsers: Chrome 66: CSS speech support 0% ... and bug trackers for different browser and AT vendors: NVDA screen reader: not supported Mozilla: not supported Chrome: not supported Opera: experimental (prefixed) support up to Opera 12.10 - removed in Opera 15 |
@patrickhlauke can you advise if this issue is still relevant so APA should track, or if it's addressed somehow somewhere? |
going through the same resources again that @dd8 listed (but noting that some of those were about CSS Speech Module http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/ which is something different from the speech media type discussed here) https://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/content/media-query-speech/ there is no change. no AT/browser combination seems to support it. i don't have access to any pure audio devices (alexa or similar) to carry out any more manual tests, but conversely i've not heard of anything in this area being done/developed (i would have thought that if any of these devices offered a special custom support for speech media type, there would have been some specific developer relations type documentation floated around to get authors to start implementing things specifically for alexa and co...but I have not seen anything of the sort). as such, i'd like to raise this again @frivoal ... can this be officially put to bed and removed? i see zero appetite from UA developers (which would need to be the ones implementing things for AT to then consume) on this...and keeping it around perpetuates the idea/hope that this media type will one day be implemented for real. |
(to be more accurate about CSS speech module, while it does talk about |
Speech synthesis with configurable voices would be nice for preschool kids and other illiterates. Many sites (and apps) for young children currently play back a prerecorded audio file for navigational elements on hover. This feels a bit like (and is as inflexible as) prerendered bitmap images for headings, which was commonly seen before the advent of downloadbable web fonts. This is quite different from speech synthesis for blind users who are usually used to a single voice and very fast playback speeds. Voice-only or voice-first user agents and texts prerecorded by TTS systems are also common in transport and traffic environments, e.g. in car multimedia systems and with earphone devices used to listen to podcasts, audiobooks, music, navigation hints etc. In other words, css-speech is very useful indeed and definitely deserves more interest by implementors, but the media type |
Oops. I didn't realize that this fix/clarification had only been made in the editors draft, and that we were due to republishing. At the very least, I need to get things in order and update the CR. As to the rest of your point, I think you've got me mostly convinced. It's theoretically right, but practically unused, unclear if it ever will, and causing confusion. We should probably drop it. |
We discussed this internally and Apple's opinion is that it is okay to deprecate the legacy media types for As others have mentioned here, and we've discussed in #4868, media types (as opposed to media features) are mutually exclusive, so these type values cannot be used with I also want to make a distinction that @patrickhlauke raised above: some comments seem to be conflating the speech media type with speech-related properties. I believe that deprecating the Thanks. |
I think the only impact on CSS Speech will be the need to slightly tweak the informative prose in https://www.w3.org/TR/css-speech-1/#background |
/!\ Please note that I won't be able to attend the discussion scheduled about this during the F2F. The gist of my thoughts on this is that the speech media type is not something that should exist, because there is no reason not to use the speech properties on elements all the time. In the same way we don't have a media query that's People who rely on assistive technologies do not want to disclose that, and browsers like Microsoft Edge have a "read-aloud" feature that users can activate on any piece of text on any page, and would benefit from annotation about how to pronounce the text in a nice-to-hear way. If the discussion results in removing the display type, sounds good, but if the discussion tilts the other way, I would like to ask to re-discuss this at a further date, for instance next Wednesday. |
I would want to hear from @LJWatson before resolving on this issue. |
@FremyCompany I agree most of what you said. As for "People who rely on assistive technologies do not want to disclose that", that is also true, but it seems a little disconnected from this feature:
Nonetheless, it happens repeatedly that people get confused and believe that speech is screenreaders. So we should probably drop it and move it to deprecated media types where syntactically valid but defined to never match. @LJWatson, the csswg was inclined to agree to deprecate this, but we didn't resolve as we wanted to hear your point of view on this. |
Thanks to @fantasai and frivoal for reminding me this was being discussed by the WG. I agree with the suggestion to deprecate speech as a media type. As @patrickhlauke notes it is not supported by screen readers and they, as @frivoal notes, do not operate independently of the screen in any case. For voice UI in the browser the CSS Speech properties have far more promise. |
The CSS Working Group just discussed
The full IRC log of that discussion<dael> Topic: [mediaqueries-4 ] Deprecate 'speech' media type as well?<dael> github: https://github.com//issues/1751 <chris> rrsagent, here <dael> astearns: We wanted to wait for input. Seems fine. Proposed resolution is deprecate speech <dael> fantasai: I think it shouldn't always return false <dael> florian: Opposite of every other deprecated thing <dael> fantasai: Doesn't mean things stop working <tantek> regrets+ <dael> florian: In MQ all deprecated media types are defined as you should parse and defined to never match. It's what deprecation means in that spec <dael> TabAtkins: If someone in the future says we want speech we can undeprecate. Until than no false promises about doing this. It should be false forever <dael> fantasai: Id on't see why we wouldn't just leave definition, say it's deprecated. Who says author would come to WG <dael> florian: If we leave a definion we'll continue to have the problem that people think it applies to screen readers <dael> fantasai: Don't see why having it return false changes that <dael> florian: Because we remove definition. no definition except it doesn't match <dael> TabAtkins: Which matches behavior of every user agent <fremy> +1 <dael> astearns: I suggest we resolve to deprecate 'speech' and have it same behavior as other deprecated MQs <dael> astearns: Resolve on that unles syou object fantasai and if you think it's worth a separate issue you can raise it. <dael> astearns: Objections? <dael> RESOLVED: deprecate 'speech' and have it have the same behavior as other deprecated MQs |
Since the `speech` media type has now also been deprecated (see w3c#1751 (comment)), this clarifies that the CSS properties defined for CSS Speech Module apply to all media types, and that they cannot be scoped in the way that was described
…atch, a=testonly Automatic update from web-platform-tests Test that deprecated media types don't match (#24432) Relates to w3c/csswg-drafts#1751 -- wpt-commits: e422c23288d1d4d61f7a5ee0d0c919ac6834a627 wpt-pr: 24432
…atch, a=testonly Automatic update from web-platform-tests Test that deprecated media types don't match (#24432) Relates to w3c/csswg-drafts#1751 -- wpt-commits: e422c23288d1d4d61f7a5ee0d0c919ac6834a627 wpt-pr: 24432
Possibly too late now for MQ4, but just wondering if there is any known support in the wild for the "speech" media type https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-4/#media-types
To my knowledge, the answer is no...which makes me wonder if that should also be deprecated along
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