Transitioning from Fabric to the Quilt ecosystem

[JerryWester]

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
The Fabric community has devolved into a one-man team, and is very likely going to stop being a community effort.

Describe the solution you'd like
A transition from Fabric to Quilt, a fork of Fabric which aims for community development. Transitioning is currently relatively painless, as it is mostly a direct fork from Fabric. In the future, however, API's may stray from Fabric's own implementation, making the transition more difficult.

[ghost]

Can you explain more about the fuss going on in Fabric development? All I see here is an open letter of some kind written by a single person and doesn't actually explain anything.

[ghost]

I have done some more research. No, Fabric is not dying. No, Fabric is not a one-man effort. It's all a feedback loop of fear. Please stop bringing this issue here until it becomes a real problem.

[JerryWester]

@JackRedstonia I would love some insight into this research of yours. From what I've seen, a majority of main contributors to Fabric have decided to abandon ship after Player has taken rein of the project.

[ghost]

I believe the burden of properly providing arguments on how this project should be ported to Quilt is on you.

From what I've seen

Where? When? I do not see anything here actually explaining the situation.

[JerryWester]

I've already posted the link to the letter explaining why I believe we should transition to the Quilt ecosystem, I only ask what your reasoning is for staying?

[5HT2]

Looking at the QuiltMC organization, I'd say the manpower to keep running the project is much larger and clearly intends to do better.

[ghost]

The letter provides little information on what Player actually does. I find it as nothing more than a bunch of cobbled together cherry-picking to try to frame him into this "transphobic/homophobic" thing I hear a lot when an angry mob tries to take over a project.

Until there's substantial information to work with, which is beyond the letter you have sent, there is no real motivation to move away from Fabric. Porting takes effort no matter how "frictionless" it is. Leave the devs alone instead of prying into their personal lives.

[5HT2]

The letter provides little information on what Player actually does.

Look at the screenshots inside it yourself 🤦‍♀️

[ghost]

I (painstakingly) read the entire thing before making any comments. None of this provides any value on what actually happened in the community, most of it is, excuse me for a second, propaganda. It's less of something informative and more of a propaganda document meant to isolate, harass and demean someone for their personal thoughts. Player is a developer, not a moderator, tell them to get some real moderators and let them do the developing instead of trying to murder them for being bad at moderating.

Now that there is an angry mob with pitchforks outside my house, this is my last comment on this matter, I'll see myself out, and I advise everyone here to go outside and take a deep breath of fresh air after dealing with the "Fabricgate" incident that will soon occur on the Interwebs.

[JerryWester]

Player is a developer, not a moderator, tell them to get some real moderators and let them do the developing instead of trying to murder them for being bad at moderating.

I believe this is the exact issue that the letter addresses, the fact that Player is "unfit to be in any community-facing positions", and that he has been requested several times to resign his position as community head and allow someone else to take the reins, to which he has refused.

[ghost]

Screw it, I'm biting the bait.

he has refused

Then that's the end of it, decision made, matter done, move on, let him do what he wants with the project. I don't get how this is in any way related to how we should actually move away from Fabric, is the Fabric code and API somehow magically cursed and a fork with (you claimed) no changes in any way is actually free of such curses?

You made it clear who this is actually about. Stop immediately.

[JerryWester]

It isn't what Fabric currently is that worries me, it is the future of Fabric that worries me. Player has made his intentions clear. Several lead Fabric contributors have disagreed with those intentions, and have abandoned the project because of it. Quilt seems more structurally stable, community-wise, and less likely to turn into yet another "one person is steering the ship." Fabric seems to be going down the same path as Forge, wherein one creator is solely handling the project, and deciding how things need to be done.

[5HT2]

demean someone for their personal thoughts

y'know, when those "personal thoughts" are attacking someone's identity I think it's well deserved

[ghost]

@JerryWester I get it, you're trying very hard to shill a fork of Fabric over superfluous matters. You are going to need something more substantial than Quilt, a fork with little appeal other than this "community support and community stability" you have been mentioning on repeat about, to be able to convince everyone.

@L1ving You could glance at somebody for one Minecraft tick and they would call you out for it nowadays.

[JerryWester]

@JackRedstonia I get it, you're trying very hard to defend a transphobe's actions simply because "he's a developer, not a moderator."

[Tigermouthbear]

Ignoring the controversy with fabric. Moving to Quilt would provide no benefits and would actually be worse for the development of this mod. No one uses Quilt, and the support won't be as good as fabric's. This is a issue with fabric's community, not kami.

[ghost]

I feel bad for 086 for having to deal with this kind of hypocratic and manipulative scum on the Internet. 20 years ago I never would have thought that someone would try to advertise a modding API for a block game by leveraging abuse and mobbing against someone else.

@Tigermouthbear Correct.

[zeroeightysix]

This discussion and relevant decisions obviously need more time - we have not yet seen what the fabric community will turn out to be (let's face it - drama's happened in fabric before, and it's been resolved before - why not this time, too?).
I respect Player as a developer. Working closely with him on fiber has left a reasonably good impression of him on me, and I don't think he's the kind of evil dictator you make him out to be. Of course, it's been a while since I've actually followed up on the community side of things in the fabric discord, so I might not be aware of the full extent of Player's recent actions.

I'm not advocating against Quilt though. Many of the other prominent developers I recognise from fabric are now working on Quilt - and if it proves itself to turn out better/more active than Fabric, and gains a decent playerbase - it won't hurt to switch (especially if compatibility with fabric is maintained for a prolonged time).

I'll leave this issue open for further discussion, but please keep it civil.

[ghost]

All the people defending Kami's use of Fabric I understand where you're coming from, but still, there may be some advantages to Quilt.

Eventually, I suspect that Player (or whoever runs Fabric now) will give up and leave the project to someone else that could possibly break or ruin the project. Having multiple people at once constantly working on Quilt would mean:

• More commits and faster updates than Fabric has now.
• More people to notice, fix, or revert new bugs or hypocrite commits by contributors with bad intent.
• More additions to the Quilt ecosystem in shorter periods of time than the current development state of the Fabric ecosystem. Fabric's owner can't do all the development of Quilt's community at once!
• Better and faster build system for mod developers. Ant, maven maybe? Gradle is seriously hard to work with.

Although the process of moving to Quilt is most certainly not painless due to the thousands upon thousands of Kami's features, it's probably worth a new branch of development.

Hear me out, Fabric is clearly a good enough ecosystem, but there still may be some advantages to using Quilt.

Quilt is not commonly used though, but if they provide a layer of support for existing Fabric mods it would probably benifit mod developers greatly.

[x4e]

Sorry @JerryWester , I do not really understand the basis of this issue. You are providing one side of an argument against a discord server as reasoning for changing Kami's entire foundation?

Personally I do not choose the frameworks my software uses based on the state of it's discord server.

[x4e]

@AcaiBerii

More commits and faster updates than Fabric has now.

It has been a while since the creation of Quilt and that is definitely not the case yet. I doubt it will become the case in the future.

More people to notice, fix, or revert new bugs or hypocrite commits by contributors with bad intent.

Fabric has a larger community and number of developers. Also are bad intentioned commits a concern? I am not aware of any known ones within Fabric.

More additions to the Quilt ecosystem in shorter periods of time than the current development state of the Fabric ecosystem. Fabric's owner can't do all the development of Quilt's community at once!

I value quality of additions over quantity. It is also not only the Fabric owner maintaining Fabric.

Better and faster build system for mod developers. Ant, maven maybe? Gradle is seriously hard to work with.

They do not seem to have any motivation for this.

Although the process of moving to Quilt is most certainly not painless due to the thousands upon thousands of Kami's features, it's probably worth a new branch of development.

It is painless. Quilt is just a fork, everything will work as usual (for now).

Quilt is not commonly used though, but if they provide a layer of support for existing Fabric mods it would probably benifit mod developers greatly.

Again, no layer needed as Quilt is a fork.