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} </script><title>edw519's comments | Hacker News</title></head><body><center><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="85%" bgcolor=#f6f6ef><tr><td bgcolor=#ff6600><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%" style="padding:2px"><tr><td style="width:18px;padding-right:4px"><a href="http://ycombinator.com"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/y18.gif" width=18 height=18 style="border:1px #ffffff solid;"></img></a></td><td style="line-height:12pt; height:10px;"><span class="pagetop"><b><a href="news">Hacker News</a></b><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=10><a href="newest">new</a> | <a href="newcomments">comments</a> | <a href="ask">ask</a> | <a href="jobs">jobs</a> | <a href="submit">submit</a> | <font color=#ffffff>edw519's comments</font></span></td><td style="text-align:right;padding-right:4px;"><span class="pagetop"><a href="newslogin?whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61">login</a></span></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr style="height:10px"></tr><tr><td><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2291691 href="vote?for=2291691&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2291691></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2291691">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2291612">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2291612">Do real developers use UML and other CASE tools?</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>These tools serve 3 purposes:<p>1. To make theory more closely match practice that already works. This gives teachers something to teach.<p>2. To make someone who doesn't know what he's doing appear as if he did. This gives consulting firms profitability.<p>3. To help organize the System Development Life Cycle (waterfall process) of very large projects. This gives someone who knows what they're doing a few more tools in their toolbox.<p>My take? If you've really found good use for tools like these, then your project is probably too big. Break it down into smaller pieces, build a prototype for each piece, get feedback, and refine. It's not how quickly you appear to get started; it's how soon you deliver something of value.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292425 href="vote?for=2292425&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292425></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=tjpick">tjpick</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292425">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Many software projects /are/ big. Many of them are complicated and monolithic, written by "someone else", unrefined, and quite possibly the first thing that they managed to get working. I find UML diagrams (sequence, class etc) invaluable for understanding code like this, as a reverse engineering tool.<p>"An occasionally invaluable tool" is how I could describe UML diagramming.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292208 href="vote?for=2292208&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292208></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=shushan">shushan</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292208">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I wonder if you would dare say the same on other engineering blueprints.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292631 href="vote?for=2292631&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292631></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=duncanj">duncanj</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292631">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Engineering blueprints <i>are</i> the "code". They are intended to be read in a systematic manner by someone who can put the parts together. In software, we call that someone a compiler.<p>Design documents, such as sketches, artists renderings, specifications of performance, etc., may or may not be useful to the engineer producing the blueprint. The discussion of UML is at the level of these artifacts. If UML is useful, I want to look at it and have an idea of what the software is going to do. Some parts, like event-state diagrams, activity diagrams, and use cases, are pretty good at capturing that design in a way that I can talk about it with someone who doesn't understand code. I would not pay someone for completing a document like that, though, not until it was reflected in code.<p>Another way of capturing design is through functional tests. Look at projects like Fit for examples of how that might work.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2293001 href="vote?for=2293001&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2293001></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=shushan">shushan</a> 336 days ago | <a href="item?id=2293001">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>This is a completely philosophical discussion, but I do not think blueprints can be the code, since blueprints in every other industry still leave a degree of freedom for the final implementation and in the software industry code IS the final implementation.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292349 href="vote?for=2292349&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292349></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=fleitz">fleitz</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292349">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Good things are not designed in this fashion. I'm sure everyone else in the aviation industry used the uml equivalent, I'm pretty sure the skunkworks teams do not.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292667 href="vote?for=2292667&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292667></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=shushan">shushan</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292667">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>It was hard for the skunk works teams to use UML for a long time since it was only published in the late 90's, but what makes you so sure they are not using it now? or do you have a survey of which "good things" are not designed in this fashion?<p>And besides what is the relative share of skunk works type teams from the overall software development market?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2291629 href="vote?for=2291629&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2291629></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2291629">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2291521">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2291521">A Non-Programmer’s Apology</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000><i>At first it was small steps — discussing programming instead of doing it, then discussing things for programmers, and then discussing other topics altogether.</i><p>This is the trap of "programmers' communities", including HN. For many years, I was a programmer by day and a civilian by night. There really wasn't much social life for programmers together. Then when I starting socializing with other programmers over beer, coffee, or on-line, my first thought was, "Finally! A group I belong in." My second thought was, "Be careful. Talking about work is not work. Have fun, but get back to work!"<p><i>...the only responsible way to live my life would be to do something that would only be done by someone who knew this thing...</i><p>That's the main reason I'm a programmer: What I write is needed and doesn't already exist. If it did, I'd probably be doing something else.<p><i>...it went amazingly well and I have since become convinced that I’m a pretty good programmer</i><p>Here's a dirty little elusive secret: It doesn't matter how good a programmer you are. All that really matters is whether or not what you build is <i>good enough</i>.<p><i>I don’t want to be a programmer. When I look at programming books, I am more tempted to mock them than to read them. When I go to programmer conferences, I’d rather skip out and talk politics than programming. And writing code, although it can be enjoyable, is hardly something I want to spend my life doing.</i><p>LookingAtProgrammingBooks != Programming<p>GoingToProgrammingConferences != Programming<p>WritingCode != Programming (well maybe a little)<p>My definition of Programming: "rejoicing in someone else's delivery of value with something I built for them". With a definition like that, I can't imagine doing anything else. I bet if we all focused on that, those many speed bumps wouldn't seem so high.<p><i>The writing is too important, the programming too unenjoyable.</i><p>You found your voice in prose, not syntax. Many spend their entire lives searching for their voice without ever finding it. Good for you.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2291775 href="vote?for=2291775&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2291775></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=spacemanaki">spacemanaki</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2291775">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>"rejoicing in someone else's delivery of value with something I built for them"<p>I think that's kind of a weird definition of programming. I don't know why it rubs me the wrong way. I find tremendous joy in writing and reading code which does something cool, even if those somethings don't provide value to the outside world.<p>Of course, programming means different things for different people, and there's nothing inherently wrong with your definition. I just think it's a bit broad and maybe misses the mark for a lot of people who really enjoy programming itself, rather than as a means to some end.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2291801 href="vote?for=2291801&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2291801></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=jerf">jerf</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2291801">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>"I think that's kind of a weird definition of programming. I don't know why it rubs me the wrong way."<p>Because a marketer can use it with a straight face to say that when they created a successful marketing campaign they have "programmed". I think you still need some concept of coding in there, even though I would also agree some idea of value delivered to somebody is also important.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2291818 href="vote?for=2291818&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2291818></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=spacemanaki">spacemanaki</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2291818">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I also definitely think delivering value is important! But wrapping that up in definition of programming itself is mixing things up. I think it makes more sense to include delivering value as part of the bigger context of programming as a career and a job.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=160></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292089 href="vote?for=2292089&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292089></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=ollysb">ollysb</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292089">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>For me at least "programming" refers to coding whilst "development" refers to the process of adding value _using_ "programming".</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2293297 href="vote?for=2293297&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2293297></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=noonespecial">noonespecial</a> 336 days ago | <a href="item?id=2293297">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>My favorite kind of programming is when I solve an esoteric little problem that no one else will ever care about but makes exactly one person's life better. Mine!<p>Its not that I'm being selfish or anything, its about rejoicing in the fact that I had the skill to do it and better my own lot, instead of sitting there helpless, wishing there was someone who could do it for me.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292385 href="vote?for=2292385&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292385></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=jimbokun">jimbokun</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292385">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>It's more a general philosophy of life. The argument is that, in the end, you will be more satisfied by creating value for other people than if you only do things you find interesting or enjoyable in the moment, but do not impact other people's lives.<p>Of course, that's not to say you have to choose only one. Google seems an exercise of doing really interesting things that also have a massive influence on people's lives.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292457 href="vote?for=2292457&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292457></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=spacemanaki">spacemanaki</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292457">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I was never arguing against that general philosophy, just pointing out that I thought it was strange to include it in a definition of programming.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2290169 href="vote?for=2290169&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2290169></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2290169">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2289714">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2289520">Your own company? You can do it</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000><i>I want to hear about the talentless hack...</i><p>Not sure I qualify, but here goes:<p><pre><code> Teen years - flipped burgers & partied
Age 21 - graduated college, flipped burgers, & partied
Age 24 - touched my first computer
Age 25 - wrote my first program
Age 27 - touched my first PC
Age 31 - wrote my first low level code
Age 32 - started my first business
Age 39 - started my second business
Age 41 - accessed the internet for the first time
Age 44 - wrote my first browser-based app
Age 51 - found Hacker News
Now - starting my third business
</code></pre>
It's never too late, you're never too old, and it's not whether the glass is half full or half empty.<p>It's about getting up off your butt and filling the glass the rest of the way.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2290619 href="vote?for=2290619&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2290619></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=kevinskii">kevinskii</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2290619">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Have your businesses been successful? Either way, hats off to you!</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2287872 href="vote?for=2287872&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2287872></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2287872">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2287542">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2287542">A clone of Microsoft Paint in JavaScript, using th...</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>OK, let me see if I got this right:<p><pre><code> 1. Identify any Windows desktop program that most people need.
2. Build an equivalent app that will run in any browser.
3. Migrate everything to the cloud (whatever that means).
4. Give everyone an iPad with 4G.
5. Get rid of the network.
6. Get rid of IT.
7. Get rid of all desks, chairs, phones, and break rooms.
8. Get rid of the corporate office.
9. Build 24,000 more Starbucks.
10. Get back to work.
</code></pre>
What did I miss?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2287882 href="vote?for=2287882&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2287882></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=Derbasti">Derbasti</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2287882">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Starbucks needs those lounging chairs you always see in the commercials. Otherwise you don't look sufficiently cool when iPadding.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2288845 href="vote?for=2288845&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2288845></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=Sembiance">Sembiance</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2288845">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>> 1. Identify any Windows desktop program that most people need.<p>> 2. Build an equivalent app that will run in any browser.<p>Like Solitaire? <a href="http://worldofsolitaire.com" rel="nofollow">http://worldofsolitaire.com</a></font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2288056 href="vote?for=2288056&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2288056></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=krmmalik">krmmalik</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2288056">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I did a blog post on using Starbucks as a main business-person hangout, and got some criticism on it. Which is ironic, cos everyone WANTS to use it as a main business-person hangout.<p>I just think its so much untapped potential for Starbucks.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2288100 href="vote?for=2288100&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2288100></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=code_duck">code_duck</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2288100">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Sure, the important part is the first two items. Creating a browser app means it is cross platform and flexible... the move to browser apps for everything illustrates well why MS knew they had to try to kill Netscape and control the browser market.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2289006 href="vote?for=2289006&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2289006></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=PostOnce">PostOnce</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2289006">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I don't think anyone in the world saw the (still hypothetical) move to browser apps coming in... 1995. I don't think that was part of their motivation at all. Browser apps were barely (if at all) possible in 1995.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2292528 href="vote?for=2292528&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2292528></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=code_duck">code_duck</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2292528">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>No, that's not true at all. Netscape saw the potential and talked publicly about it quite early on. The details were imagined differently, but people knew that the browser would be a cross-platform way to distribute software. People might have thought things like Java would be more involved than JavaScript, but that's not the point. I can find citations if you'd like. Believe me, I was there.<p>This all came out in the Justice Department's antitrust case against Microsoft, too - emails written by MS and Netscape employees discussing this.<p>Think of how Microsoft saw the world back then. Applications like Britannica on CD-ROM were <i>Windows Applications</i>. Browsers were perfectly capable of displaying images, formatted text, and arranging to play sounds. That means something like an encyclopedia was perfectly possible, and it would work the same on Windows, Mac or Unix. It was clear a lot of apps could be done in a browser.<p>Whether an application ran in the browser or on a remote server is not the point. The rise of an open way to distribute content meant the Win32 API was going to be much less valuable, and MS would lose the control. From the beginning the browser had the potential to become a platform-independent way of delivering program content to an end user, and everyone knew it.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2290664 href="vote?for=2290664&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2290664></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=Lennie">Lennie</a> 337 days ago | <a href="item?id=2290664">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Privacy and control of your own data.<p>But I'm certain that can be solved. Just run the cloud on your own hardware and backup to your friends (encrypted obviously):<p><a href="http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/</a></font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284658 href="vote?for=2284658&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284658></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284658">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2284096">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2284096">Techmeme vs Hacker News</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Like many HN posts, I found the comments even more insightful than the article:<p>"TM: What has happened. HN: What will happen." - William Mougayar<p>"Hacker news is great...Huge time-sink liability though." - Liad<p>"I find the comments more interesting sometimes than the actual article that is being linked to" - Rick<p>"Techmeme is a popularity contest, HackerNews is curation. Curation in my experience wins easily." - Larry M.<p>"I have really fallen in love with HackerNews lately, finding its eclectic mix of articles fascinating. I have been participating a lot there because it doesn't just pull in the same old standard fair I find everywhere else. I also often find, multiple perspectives, whether in stories or in the comments." - Elia Freedman<p>"...the commenters on HN leave a lot to be desired. With a room full of geeks, you pretty much get what you'd expect -- some insights, but a lot of pedantry." - davidu<p>"Hacker News is so great I only let myself go there once a day. And I might have to cut back on that too..." - Nate Kidwell<p>"Hacker News looks like a place where you can soak your brain for hours, if you have the time." - James Harradence</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285156 href="vote?for=2285156&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285156></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=njohnw">njohnw</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285156">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>From Alexis Madrigal of The Atlantic: "All of our stories that do well on Hacker News share one thing: they are written. By written, I mean that someone took the time and effort to examine individual sentences, to think about word choices, to create transitions between grafs, to describe things precisely. You know, writing! But a lot of what gets posted in the tech blogosphere doesn't fit this definition of writing. It's more in the tradition of the wire services, where speed rules over creativity. That the Hacker News community both recognizes and rewards pieces that are written makes me love it."</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285035 href="vote?for=2285035&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285035></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=jdp23">jdp23</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285035">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Adrienne Jeffries and Alexis Madrigal also have some really interesting things to say. Fred's blog often has excellent comment threads and this is a fine one.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285266 href="vote?for=2285266&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285266></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=TheSOB88">TheSOB88</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285266">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Yeah, I'd like we could do something about that pedantry.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284331 href="vote?for=2284331&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284331></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284331">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2284007">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2284007">The blind man who taught himself to see</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000><i>Kish figures it would require $15 million to prove whether or not his idea is feasible. He fears he’ll never get the opportunity.</i><p>Sounds like he needs some real angels, those who measure the success of their investment in something bigger than dollars. How does one go about finding and pitching to them?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284557 href="vote?for=2284557&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284557></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=BobbyH">BobbyH</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284557">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Can't he use lean startup principles to launch with his existing device that offers an improvement over a cane, instead of raising $15 MM to offer a perfect product that lets blind people play tennis? If I were blind, I would surely pay thousands of dollars for the K-Sonar device if it could enhance my sensory input beyond "what I feel with my cane within 2 feet" to "everything around me within 15 feet".<p>If he got the K-Sonar approved as a medical device, I think he'd be able to get paid from deep-pocketed insurance companies too.<p>Improving the range (and doing research on inner-ear microphone implants) could be done in later versions (if mainstream blind customers really are interested in playing tennis, which I am skeptical about). If v1 makes people more independent, that's a huge deal already!<p>I bet he could get pretty far just by reallocating his existing $200k/year budget to commercializing the technology, which has the potential to be embraced by a lot more people than the blind people he is introduced to (only 10% of whom even get good at echolocation-through-clicking).</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284742 href="vote?for=2284742&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284742></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=rbarooah">rbarooah</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284742">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Part of it involves surgery - which might be tricky to do incrementally.<p>It also doesn't sound as though he knows much about startup methodology or has the personality or desire to solve the bootstrapping problem. He's seems like a domain expert but not an entrepreneur.<p>I guess that means a lot of blind people will have fewer opportunities.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285568 href="vote?for=2285568&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285568></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=VladRussian">VladRussian</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285568">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>>If I were blind, I would surely pay thousands of dollars for the K-Sonar device if it could enhance my sensory input beyond "what I feel with my cane within 2 feet" to "everything around me within 15 feet".<p>There is an easy(cheap, i'd say tens of dollars, see prices for ultrasound parking sensors) implementable "virtual cane" :
the pair of laser (like in laser pointer) + receiver + small chip which would re-scale the sensor output to the hand from light speed scale (10m / 300000 m/s = 0.00003s ) to the tactile feedback scale - tenths of a second.
The same can be done with ultrasound. The both can be even paired, for precision and cases of say low light (or sound) reflecting surfaces.<p>The main problem i think is that blind people have their hands full just trying to live the life, while non-blind don't care and or passionate enough to cross the threshold into doing something. The guy in the article is just a miraculous exception.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2286417 href="vote?for=2286417&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2286417></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=SoftwareMaven">SoftwareMaven</a> 338 days ago | <a href="item?id=2286417">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Unfortunately, medical devices don't really allow incremental development. Studies are incredibly expensive, and relatively minor changes can completely invalidate them.<p>Even Steve Blank recognizes the model doesn't fit for medical devices.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285086 href="vote?for=2285086&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285086></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=gcv">gcv</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285086">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>For the first time in my life, I truly wish I had the money to be an angel investor.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284799 href="vote?for=2284799&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284799></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=brandnewlow">brandnewlow</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284799">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Kickstarter.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284840 href="vote?for=2284840&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284840></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=jonnathanson">jonnathanson</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284840">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Kickstarter is a great platform for sales and marketing once you've got a functional and scalable prototype. It's not a great place to raise exploratory / research funding.<p>If you look at the history of Kickstarter's most successful projects, they tend to resemble pre-sales more than "donations." There's usually a product delivered at X level of individual funding, and 90% of the funding comes in at X level.<p>This model is fantastic for launching new products that are ready to go upon receipt of funding. It's not as successful for raising money for R&D.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285165 href="vote?for=2285165&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285165></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=enjo">enjo</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285165">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Didn't Diaspora raise all of that cash through Kickstarter with basically nothing in return?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=160></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285249 href="vote?for=2285249&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285249></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=jonnathanson">jonnathanson</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285249">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I think the jury's still out on Diaspora. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being. That's my polite and respectful way of saying yes to you here.<p>But it's the case in point. Diaspora raised what would otherwise have been VC or angel dollars. Kickstarter isn't the platform for that. It's a bootstrapping platform optimized for product sales.<p>The people who succeed on Kickstarter have a) finished or finishable products that b) can be sold via "donations" on Kickstarter. This is because the patrons/backers on Kickstarter are far more likely to fork over their $50 and receive something tangible in return than they are to donate $50 to support a dream.<p>I'm a big fan of the Kickstarter concept. Huge fan. But human nature dictates the limits and strengths of its use cases. Your audience on Kickstarter is consumers, not financiers. These are consumers who receive no equity or charitable tax deduction for their "donations," and who will thus "donate" primarily in exchange for privileged or early access to a cool product. Or maybe to get their names in the back of the book. Whatever. Point is, they want to <i>buy</i> something. Inevitably, then, it becomes a sales and marketing platform and not a venture capital platform.<p>It's theoretically possible that the next Apple would come out of Kickstarter, but not the next Facebook.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2299184 href="vote?for=2299184&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2299184></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=arvinjoar">arvinjoar</a> 334 days ago | <a href="item?id=2299184">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Peter Thiel? He's a transhumanist, and this seems pretty doable. Anyway, if he hasn't pitched Thiel yet, he should do it, the worst thing that could happen is that Peter says "no, that's not how I want to spend my money", and that'd be fine.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2300749 href="vote?for=2300749&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2300749></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=ecaradec">ecaradec</a> 334 days ago | <a href="item?id=2300749">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>The Bill&Melinda Gates fundation might be interested too. They are interested in medical & technology. That would be a good fit.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2283819 href="vote?for=2283819&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2283819></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2283819">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2283690">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2283690">Can't think of a good class name? Try this:</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I was about to make a snarky comment like "ShootMeNow", until I realized that OP may actually have a real winner on his hands...<p>Think about it.<p>It a Big 5 consulting firm acquired this and used it in their enterprise web app practice, would anyone ever be able to tell the difference?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=0></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2283802 href="vote?for=2283802&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2283802></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=edw519">edw519</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2283802">link</a> | <a href="item?id=2283205">parent</a> | on: <a href="item?id=2283205">Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1%</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000><i>In fact, one thing I have noticed is that the people who I consider to be good software developers barely ever apply for jobs at all.</i><p>Good point. The best developers I ever hired were (a) already working, (b) not looking, (c) referred, and (d) without a current resume.<p>Therefore, the people who I consider to be good software developers probably don't have a current resume.<p>Therefore, the top 1% of good software developers probably don't have a current resume.<p>Therefore, if you have a pile of current resumes, it probably includes none of the top 1% of good software developers.<p>Therefore, if you're hiring from current resumes, your probably <i>not</i> hiring the top 1%.<p>[The only thing worse than sloppy probability and statistics is sloppy logic. But that's OK, because I'm not in the top 1% of either.]</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=40></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2283908 href="vote?for=2283908&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2283908></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=bartonfink">bartonfink</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2283908">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=80></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284044 href="vote?for=2284044&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284044></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=danohuiginn">danohuiginn</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284044">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs.<p>I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more than a couple of years.<p>The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284402 href="vote?for=2284402&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284402></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=pnathan">pnathan</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284402">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I'm not sure your exception is an exception. In the company I work for, there are some amazingly bright guys, but I don't hear about them being in any open-source project. I would <i>suspect</i> only the interns and a few of the younger guys have code published on bitbucket or whatever.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285276 href="vote?for=2285276&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285276></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=moomba">moomba</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285276">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>There are some real smart people that don't have business savvy or street smarts. Its easy to get locked into a big dumb corporation that doesn't recognize talent. You could spend a long time in a place like that and not realize your potential. After all, most kids still go through college and work at "safe" jobs.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=160></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2285386 href="vote?for=2285386&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2285386></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=dpritchett">dpritchett</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2285386">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>There's an inherent information asymmetry in the job market too. Think of great coders who grow up in the middle of nowhere and get a job in the nearest city. They don't know what the vets at their company in Birmingham, AL are making. All they know is that the coders on HN all say "at least $100k for a dev in the bay area".<p>You need to do a lot of footwork <i>and</i> networking to build an accurate picture of the employment market in a region.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284087 href="vote?for=2284087&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284087></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=aoschadlin">aoschadlin</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284087">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>I agree whole heartedly with this point. I currently work for a large bay area company and I noticed a new intern come on board who just has the 'X' factor, and could well turn into that top 1% or close to it.<p>Needless to say I'll most likely approach him as my first hire when I get to that stage with my own startup.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284860 href="vote?for=2284860&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284860></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=caseysoftware">caseysoftware</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284860">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>"The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent."<p>Their boss will.. and their coworkers (above and below) will. There have been a number of times that I've been asked for a recommendation and referred someone that was a past supervisor, team lead, etc.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284731 href="vote?for=2284731&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284731></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=pasbesoin">pasbesoin</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2284731">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000>A small thought/question: How do "we own all your IP" employment agreements influence and affect the power/mobility of such people?<p>I'm not arguing that they are a factor. Just asking -- in part, as a thought exercise.</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2286085 href="vote?for=2286085&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2286085></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead"><a href="user?id=bootload">bootload</a> 339 days ago | <a href="item?id=2286085">link</a></span></div><br>
<span class="comment"><font color=#000000><i>"... other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. ..."</i><p>Do you mean, <i>"other people who work with them"</i> or <i>"other people who notice them"</i>? I ask this because how do you tell if someone is a great hacker unless you work with them?</font></span><p><font size=1><font color=#f6f6ef>-----</font></font></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border=0><tr><td><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/s.gif" height=1 width=120></td><td valign=top><center><a id=up_2284633 href="vote?for=2284633&dir=up&whence=%2f%78%3f%66%6e%69%64%3d%5a%4e%68%5a%52%53%57%66%71%61"><img src="http://ycombinator.com/images/grayarrow.gif" border=0 vspace=3 hspace=2></a><span id=down_2284633></span></center></td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px; "><span class="comhead">