Change to a republic

[Floppy]

No description provided.

[timcowlishaw]

👍 from me!

[Floppy]

/me prepares for a flamewar 🔥

[PaulJRobinson]

Yes to a written constitution (could this be pulled out of this PR and
detailed somewhere else) as I think this discussion will focus on the Head
of State element of the PR?

The name of our Head of State doesn't concern me so much. But it might be
worth considering that if you're going to have an elected Head of State,
they could still be designated King or Queen if it helps ease the publics
'fear of change' - an elected Monarchy worked on the planet Naboo [ducks
head from incoming projectiles]. Seriously though I don't see why an
elected Head of State couldn't still be given the same title as we've been
used to. Sometimes perception counts for a lot, particularly for a nation
as tied to its history as we are, and I think this would be much more
palatable to the public.

Having said that, I am very much in favour of an unelected Head of State. I
think an elected Head of State would be hugely divisive (look at how
partisan the USA has become as an example) and I like that the King/Queen
is apolitical and entirely ceremonial. The monarch is someone to rally
around, who can unify the nation during times of crisis (eg the Blitz) or
around a celebration (eg the Jubilee). It's much easier to ignore the
personality of the incumbent in a Monarchy. People like 'The Queen' rather
than 'Elizabeth' the person. An elected Head of State would be all about
the individual which is why they could be hugely divisive.

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 29 January 2014 09:26, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

/me prepares for a flamewar [image: 🔥]

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[Floppy]

I see this as an essential democratic argument. I agree that having a purely ceremonial head of state without real power is fine (which is what Republic recommend), and I don't really care what it's called, but that office must derive from the people, not from birthright. The idea of being born into power is one of the things that's rotting democratic engagement in this country; it perpetuates the class system, and entrenches established power far beyond just the monarchy.

[Floppy]

Essentially, the model as laid out in detail at the end of the included link creates a ceremonial and apolitical office that replaces the Monarchy, but without really changing the balance of real power in the system.

[PaulJRobinson]

Yeah I've just been going through the whole Republic website which is very
informative. I want to do some more reading up on it before thumbingup/down
this PR. Would still like to separate out the Written Constitution aspect
into another PR though as I think it's a different issue.

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 29 January 2014 11:22, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

Essentially, the model as laid out in detail at the end of the included
link creates a ceremonial and apolitical office that replaces the Monarchy,
but without really changing the balance of real power in the system.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//pull/85#issuecomment-33576151
.

[Floppy]

OK, let me pull that out into a separate PR. I imagine that one should go in without much controversy :)

[pikesley]

[PaulJRobinson]

Hey my English isn't that bad!

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 29 January 2014 14:31, Sam Pikesley notifications@github.com wrote:

[image: typing]https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/885973/2030122/0b624632-88f2-11e3-9eb5-5c4107a8ebcc.png

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[Floppy]

:)

[frankieroberto]

Why do you need a Head of State at all?

[philipjohn]

That's what I've been thinking :)
On 1 Feb 2014 09:45, "Frankie Roberto" notifications@github.com wrote:

Why do you need a Head of State at all?

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[PaulJRobinson]

There are international ceremonial duties to perform where we need to send
someone to represent the UK but it doesn't require anyone with political
skill/power to negotiate on our behalf, or there may be more pressing
matters at home requiring the PM's attention. International funerals;
weddings; Olympic opening ceremonies; days of national festivity where a
ceremonial Head of State is very useful. I like to think of the Head of
State as like the village Mayor, but of the whole country. They are
excellent when you need someone to cut a ribbon and open the local
carnival, but don't want them to have any actual power. I'd much rather the
PM focussed on matters of importance and doesn't have to worry about such
things (because they would still need to be done, and without a Head of
State only the PM would be able to fulfil that role).

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 1 February 2014 16:40, philipjohn notifications@github.com wrote:

That's what I've been thinking :)

On 1 Feb 2014 09:45, "Frankie Roberto" notifications@github.com wrote:

Why do you need a Head of State at all?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub<
https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/85#issuecomment-33867641>

.

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[Floppy]

This has also crossed my mind in the process of thinking about this. If
there wasn't a President though, presumably the PM would be the de facto
HoS. I think I'd rather there was a figurehead that was explicitly
apolitical instead. Hmmm. Are there countries that do this differently?

[PaulJRobinson]

This is useful, and makes same points I did above
http://www.republic.org.uk/blog/?p=1041

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 3 February 2014 13:43, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

This has also crossed my mind in the process of thinking about this. If
there wasn't a President though, presumably the PM would be the de facto
HoS. I think I'd rather there was a figurehead that was explicitly
apolitical instead. Hmmm. Are there countries that do this differently?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//pull/85#issuecomment-33954889
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[Floppy]

Yes, that blog post makes sensible points on why a Head of State is sometimes required I'm happier with that now. Any further thoughts on this from anyone?

[philipjohn]

👍

[Floppy]

We have a couple of thumbs up, and none down, so technically I could merge this, but it's a big one, so I'll wait a little while longer I think. @PaulJRobinson, I know you have concerns on this - do you want to block, or shall we go ahead?

[frankieroberto]

I think the constitution should be removed from this PR and made separately.

It could also be made clearer that the elected head of state office holds no political power, and give some idea as to term length?

[Floppy]

Yep, now we've merged #95, I'll remove the constitution section from here, and add your suggestions too.

[Floppy]

OK, I've updated this. Removed the unnecessary constitution bit, and added a bit more info on ceremonial status of position, independence from government, and term limits. Votes?

[PaulJRobinson]

If there was to be a republic, this is now getting closer to how I would like to see it done. Could we delete the 'subject to British law, unlike the current monarch'. Magna Carta is one of the oldest laws still on the statute books anywhere in the world, and stated for the first time that even the monarch is subject to the law. King John wasn't best pleased, but he did put his seal to it 800 years ago next year, gawd bless'im.

[Floppy]

Oh, that's a misunderstanding on my part. I thought they weren't. Changing.

[PaulJRobinson]

How do I register an abstention for a PR? ie I don't want to become a Republic, although I recognise that is the majority opinion here, and this PR represents the best outcome in that eventuality.

[Floppy]

It's a good question; simply not voting will do it, but if you want to register an actual abstention for the record, perhaps we could use :hand: ?

[PaulJRobinson]

Content to be overuled on this occasion - I'm clearly in minority - but
would like to put on record my ✋ vote

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 10 February 2014 10:33, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

It's a good question; simply not voting will do it, but if you want to
register an actual abstention for the record, perhaps we could use ✋?

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[Floppy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity#United_Kingdom is what I'm thinking of. Will rephrase and add a link.

[PaulJRobinson]

WTACTUALF!!!! This is nuts! I stand corrected, as this seem to be
completely against the principle of equality before the law as enshrined in
Magna Carta. Changing my vote to 👍

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 10 February 2014 10:36, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity#United_Kingdom is what
I'm thinking of. Will rephrase and add a link.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//pull/85#issuecomment-34617572
.

[PaulJRobinson]

Stupid bloody Magna Carta. Won't be celebrating your 800th birthday next
year after all.

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 10 February 2014 10:39, Paul Robinson robinson.pauljames@gmail.comwrote:

WTACTUALF!!!! This is nuts! I stand corrected, as this seem to be
completely against the principle of equality before the law as enshrined in
Magna Carta. Changing my vote to 👍

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 10 February 2014 10:36, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity#United_Kingdom is what
I'm thinking of. Will rephrase and add a link.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//pull/85#issuecomment-34617572
.

[Floppy]

😆

[Floppy]

Added a link to soverign immunity, but I think this can be considered as passed. Yay!

[PaulJRobinson]

NUTS I TELL YOU. THIS WORLD WE LIVE IN IS FULL OF NUTS. I KNOW NOTHING
ANYMORE

with kind regards,
Paul Robinson

about.me/pauljrobinson

On 10 February 2014 10:51, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:

Added a link to soverign immunity, but I think this can be considered as
passed. Yay!

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[Floppy]

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