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Remove the undemocratic whips system #94
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RE WHIPS: I hate the whipping system, but I'm not sure it's as easy as banning it. Similarly even without formal Party Whips, or formally whipped votes, party Ultimately constituents will (hopefully) reward MPs who demonstrate they with kind regards, about.me/pauljrobinson On 1 February 2014 20:56, philipjohn notifications@github.com wrote:
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I agree they'll still do it, but it's much easier WITH the whips system, which provides the party leaderships with a ready made tool to bully and cajole MPs. We should take that away tool from those... tools. |
There's 3 file changes wrapped up in this one pull request. Can you separate them please. I agree with @PaulJRobinson in that it's not as simple as 'abolishing the whips' – politicians should be free to collaborate together in this collective vote-as-one-block way if they so choose. However it might be worth removing any formal recognition of whips within parliament (such as official job titles and associated salaries), but I'm no expert on how this works. |
@frankieroberto @philipjohn yes, I think there is some housing stuff included here accidentally. Regarding the main thrust of the PR; I agree, whips are evil. Regarding subtle influence, I think we need to widen the scope a little, and make it illegal to seek to coerce any MP into voting a particular way. That way, whips are banned automatically, and if it can be shown that subtle influence is happening, then investigations can be done, etc. I figure there is some existing electoral law we can use here - I guess it's illegal to make a member of the public vote a particular way. Why should that be any different in the Commons? (or Lords, or local councils, etc etc) 👍 from me as is, but I'd like to see it extended as well. |
Sorry chaps, must have messed up my branches. Now fixed. I like that idea @Floppy so I tried to find something along those lines but so far coming up empty handed. Not entirely sure I'm using the right phrases to search... any ideas? |
Also, offences are listed in http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2 - search for "Personation" for the start of the section. I can't see anything in there that explicitly states that it's illegal to exchange a vote for favours or prospects; there is obviously stuff on direct bribery, but I'm not sure about the more implicit stuff. Anyone else know? |
How's this, folks? |
I think that's a bit wide. Doesn't that make me asking my MP to vote a certain way on a certain issue illegal? |
I guess it does. An exception for constituents probably wouldn't cut it E.g. "A new criminal offence will be created outlawing the influencing of |
I'm not sure this is a good idea. Influencing parliamentary votes is how democracy should work... A limited policy of reforming parliamentary roles and removing official support / recognition of whips might get my vote. Needs a bit more research though – i.e. what do they do (officially) at the moment? |
Can I be a gigantic pain in the backside and change my mind? I'm coming round to the idea of a simple PR stating "Every vote in the House of Commons should be a free vote". The government should have to convince and persuade and build a fresh coalition of votes from across the House on every Bill put before Parliament. I wouldn't ban whips. Whips would still exist in order to be the government's people on the ground who go around trying to build those coalitions. But because every vote is a free vote they have to use persuasion rather than coercion. |
@PaulJRobinson How is that different from the status quo? |
Because the vast majority of votes at the moment are whipped votes. Very with kind regards, about.me/pauljrobinson On 10 February 2014 11:23, Frankie Roberto notifications@github.com wrote:
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But isn't the whipping system fairly unofficial? i.e. all votes are technically 'free votes'. |
I have no problem with people trying to build consensus, but the shadowy world of trading benefits and influence for toeing the party line must be stopped. Whether I get a corner office overlooking the Thames shouldn't be affected by whether I voted in line with my party. I'm sure there must be proposals out there on this. Will look around. |
No each party makes clear distinctions to their MPs for each Bill that goes with kind regards, about.me/pauljrobinson On 10 February 2014 11:35, Frankie Roberto notifications@github.com wrote:
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Better clarity here on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_(politics) In the United Kingdom, there are three categories of whip that are issued
with kind regards, about.me/pauljrobinson On 10 February 2014 11:41, Paul Robinson robinson.pauljames@gmail.comwrote:
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But as it says, these are indirect instructions, and are part of the party system, not parliament itself. I'm not sure you can (or should) legislate on how a party negotiates internally on how their MPs vote. |
I think there are two issues here;
Those are the reasons for proposing the whips system be dropped, by interestingly, this stood out to me from your comment @PaulJRobinson: "Breach An interesting way to think of this whole issue is around "parliamentary Refs |
There is another counter argument to @philipjohn's point above that perhaps So they did the deal with the devil, and now they're in Parliament. Those Speaking for myself I made a decision to stand for election to Council in So one could argue that Whips help ensure that MPs are fulfilling their with kind regards, about.me/pauljrobinson On 10 February 2014 19:02, philipjohn notifications@github.com wrote:
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It's a fair point, but it assumes that parties stick to their pre-election promises and manifestos, which we all know they do not. Especially in this case where there is a coalition agreement which supercedes everything pre-election (and even that's not being stuck to, I don't think). |
I see this as an attempt to reduce the influence of party politics in general. I agree that whips are an essential component of party politics, but it's party politics that has people disillusioned. It's explicitly not something we believe in here (we are aiming for direct democracy in the long run), so removing the influence of the whips is a step along that road. |
Good point, well made. Here's my rebuttal :)
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All very good points indeed. With reference to James' earlier point
OK so in summary: I favour Direct Democracy - which would allow us to get On 11 February 2014 10:57, philipjohn notifications@github.com wrote:
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On the bigger question, I'm not convinced about 'direct democracy' vs 'representative democracy'. Even if we were to favour the former though, I’m not sure that abolishing whips is the best way to achieve this, or even if it's workable. You can't ban MPs from voluntarily voting with their party / a group... I can't support this PR as it stands. |
I'll respond fully later, but on this one: "You can't ban MPs from |
@philipjohn the PR bans 'the influencing of the parliamentary vote' – this seems crazy. It would make writing to your MP to try and persuade them to vote a particular way a criminal offence! I can understand the desire to have more independently minded MPs, but I don’t think you can achieve this by simply banning parties from asking their MPs to vote as a block. You could, for instance, make all parliamentary votes secret ballots – however I think this would be terrible. |
Yeah, I agree here. We need to limits the power of the whips, but this is far too broadly written as is. As @frankieroberto points out, it would make asking your MP to vote on something illegal, which is far too broad. I'm also 👎 as currently written, though I agree with the principle. |
Wouldn't returning to my original suggestion deal with that? edae5e7 |
Your original suggestion banned whips, and made all votes 'free votes', but gave no suggestion as to how this could be implemented – parties could simply rename whips, declare all votes free, but give strong suggestions as to how their MPs vote, which in effect is what we have now. I think the most constructive thing to do would be to allow the current system to continue, but to look at the incentives for MPs to follow their parties, such that they're more likely to feel able to rebel. For instance, at the moment party leaders can appoint their cabinet from amongst their MPs, which basically allows them to decide who gets a big pay rise and more responsibility. So one idea might be to separate the Executive (i.e. the Government) and the Legislature (i.e. Parliament) more, with politicians transferring between these through some process other than the patronage of the Prime Minister. |
Just had a conversation with @francisdavey, who has suggested an "Open Whip" system which might be an interesting compromise between the need for whips to keep a party together, and the desire for transparency and accountability. Currently, unless someone leaks the whip, nobody outside parliament knows which votes are whipped and to what level. Could we make it a requirement that the whip must be published openly, preferably at the same time the MPs get it? Is that a middle ground that gives us a way forward on this? |
@Floppy sounds good On 20 March 2014 08:54, James Smith notifications@github.com wrote:
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@Floppy that seems like something which should be encouraged, but I'm not sure how it could be enforced (or if it should be). We can already tell whether an MP voted with their party or not, after all. |
Yes, but the question is whether they were told to or not. More transparency can only be a good thing here. I'm not too worried about enforcement at this point, more the principle. |
I want to agree to that as a short-term compromise, my thinking being that it'd change nothing in the Commons at all but might show the public that their MPs aren't working for them, but the party. However, I am cynical enough to be almost certain that the general public would know about as much about "open whips" as they do about the present system (i.e., diddly squat). That leaves us in the same position where the party decides and public opinion gets brushed aside (I'm gonna have to bring up Iraq again on that point...). |
👎 |
This is drawn too widely at the moment. How about:
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@Floppy I'm not sure how 'to be considered' is workable – very hard to prove either way. Better in my view to examine the system of punishment / benefits themselves:
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The dismissal thing may not be workable, I admit. Perhaps the only way to remove the influence of party loyalty is to take decisions away from the parties, as you suggest. Random allocation of offices seems obvious, and the idea of more separation of legislature and executive seems good, but would need a much larger PR than this to accomplish. |
A quick win on that might be to have Cabinet appointments subject to |
Apparently before it used to be the case that any Cabinet (or ministerial) appointment was subject to constituency approval. It was considered 'swapping sides' because the MP would no longer be free to vote in favour or genuine constituency interests as they would be obliged to vote alongside Government. So an MP would call a by-election before accepting such a post. I quite like that idea! |
@PaulJRobinson Wow, that's interesting! |
I'm aware this is dead, but I thought it worth sharing thoughts I blogged today that go some way to the reasoning behind the suggestion of abolishing whips. |
Nice. I'd still like to see this turned into something workable one day :) |
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