Game Direction

[CoreDuo]

Unfortunately, this is going to be where most of the hard decisions are going to have to be made, and not everybody is going to like the end result, but that's the way it goes. Before anything more is done on difficulty settings, adding more levels, or anything of that nature, I think it should be decided where the end goals ultimately lie for how the game is going to be played. Things can't just keep getting added that facilitate different types of gameplay paradigms. For example, there's a character level system that's been in the github repo for a while now but it's not used for anything. There's a system that allows going from the end of one level to the next that's never been used.

There's also quite a lot of questions that need to be asked for this project to move forward. Should we keep pursuing on the player being able to select the map instead of traditional levels? Should there be a natural difficulty curve instead of preset difficulty settings? If we stick to preset difficulties, how do they need to be balanced? Should we split the game into multiple game modes? If so, what game mode do we give top development priority so that there's a playable game while the other game modes are worked on?

The reason I think this should be a high priority issue is because other issues like more monsters, more weapons, more items, and power-ups depend on this and will be persistently in limbo until this is decided.

I started off with some suggestions on the forums here but it didn't spur much discussion. There's also some scattered discussion in issues #48, #118 and #171, but there's been no general consensus.

One way of going about this would be through Google Moderator so that people could post their ideas and they could be voted on as a community, then the top rated ones could be filed as github issues and discussed further.

http://www.google.com/moderator/

[Austin01]

I think Google Moderator would be the best out of the two, because UserVoice is nice but paid. Which if we want to have more that one 'moderator' to manage all the ideas it won't work. I do think this however.

We also have the option of using http://catacombsnatch.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=5 for suggestions and ideas and I've added a system that allows for prioritizing etc. just not voting. Though that could be determined by another means.

[CoreDuo]

UserVoice has both free and paid options. But yes, I think Google Moderator would be the better option.

[Scorpion1122]

This is indeed something we have to look at. I think what will help with this is creating 1 solid rule about what the game is supposed to be, everything created after has to work towards that rule.

[CoreDuo]

Well, as far as creating one solid rule, we're making a game and it has to be fun. But game design is inherently complex, especially when working with a group. What I think really needs to be done is writing up a design document so that everyone currently working on the project knows what to do and anyone that's new and wants to work on the project is on the same page from the start. This can probably be done fairly easily through github's wiki.

[mkalam-alami]

@CoreDuo I totally agree with your views. The main problem is that we're still in the process of setting up 'official' mediums of communication to discuss such things as the gameplay direction, the roadmap and milestones and even how to manage the Git repository properly.

We have more-or-less decided to use the forums (+ IRC) to discuss such things, but not everyone yet have registered there.

Regarding GoogleModerator... I don't have an opinion yet... Indeed it might be useful to avoid spamming the Github issues, but for global gameplay design we need real discussion.

[CoreDuo]

@mkalam-alami Yes, I realize this. This project is still less than a week old. I just wanted to make entirely sure that it wasn't a problem that went unaddressed for too long. I figured the bug fixing stage we're in right now with new features being put on hold would be a good time to do it. I'm actually rather impressed with the level of organization there is here now given the total chaos that happened on Minecraft Forums when the source was released.

[Scorpion1122]

http://catacombsnatch.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=78 to centrelize the discussion (not everyone is allowed in that subforum i believe, if you want acces message austin)

[Austin01]

That forum is publicly accessible, no worries.

[CoreDuo]

@Austin01 I can't access that thread. Is it in a subforum that regular users don't have access to?

[zorro300]

I can't acces it :( either

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[Austin01]

Whoops, yes actually that forum is private. It's for our 'official' developers. Which are basically the users who constantly maintain the GitHub and project with frequent commits. I'm setting up a wiki page regarding this, so sit tight.

[zorro300]

That kinda sucks, I think it should be open for everyone and only the "official" developers can post. How can we discuss things if only about 10 people are even able to just read it

EDIT:

@Austin01: is there any way that the "You have to wait to post" message could be disabled for me ? I know I'm only for the MCthread but I also try to help as much as possible with answerring on the CS forums :)

[Scorpion1122]

@zorro300 because organizing everyone will be impossible, (although readability might not be so bad)

[Austin01]

@zorro300 I'm not quite sure what message your referring to? Screenshot possibly(message it to me on the forum, not here)?

[CoreDuo]

Yeah, need to get this issue back on topic. Forum issues can be discussed directly with Austin.

[mkalam-alami]

Why not make it readable for everyone, there's no reason to hide our posts indeed. As long as only official developers have writing rights to keeps things under control!

[zorro300]

ok I'll try to get it and screen it
and I'll PM it :)

[master-lincoln]

+1 for making it readable by everyone... Hey this an open source project so keep the roadmap open too

[danielduner]

I think would make sense to have it open for writing for everyone and lock it down later only if it is needed.

[zorro300]

yeah +1 for opening

[mkalam-alami]

@danielduner I would rather say the opposite: given how many we are, at the moment what we're risking is topic flooding, making the threads impossible to really follow. IMO we open the forum for everyone to write when things have calmed down a bit.

[danielduner]

I see your point. Well, as long as we're not restrictive with adding new people.

[zorro300]

Yeah i see the point , why not make @mkalam-alami communication advisor so he can fix the github problems . ooh but ..... yeah nvm

[CoreDuo]

Since @Austin01 made the thread readable, that's pretty much what an industry standard game design document is.

[CoreDuo]

More relevant threads on possible gameplay mechanics here and here

[fierydrake]

I think the short term plans I've seen in the developers forum are on the right lines.
What I'd personally like to see in the short term are the following two threads to be pursued in parallel:

Track 1 - Give the punters something they can use

1. Cut a release of what we have RIGHT now
2. Decide if any of the features don't make sense or are incomplete and remove them
3. Fix all known bug issues
4. Release beta, ask for lots of people to play this release and report only bugs
5. Fix bugs for a set period of time or until all the worst bugs are fixed
6. Cut final release and only add fixes to the branch

Track 2 - Keep it stable

1. Write a test framework that can do unit and/or acceptances tests
2. Populate the test bucket with regression tests based on the known issues
3. Run the test bucket regularly

I'd like to see a priority on getting something out that people can point at and say - that's stable, playable and it's got a bunch (not a ton) of nice features.

Let people continue to develop new stuff, but keep it away from this release branch.
Once we have cut the release, then we can start looking at what people have been contributing and mix it in a pot to come up with a real game design and plan for release 2.0.

I think we have an opportunity to establish the project now, and I think we should try and give people something that shows the potential of what we are doing. Some of the features we're developing are great, and we can still advertise them as being developed, but until the punters have something stable in their hands, I think we should concentrate on consolidating what we have already achieved.

Um. Yeah. Rock on!

[zorro300]

Hopefully version 2.0 can contain the campaign, we're discussing saving/... Basically the basics still :)

[mkalam-alami]

@fierydrake Good idea regarding setting up tests. See #322 for the short-term roadmap, you're welcome to share your views regarding the planned Git branching model while it's not set up (look for the link to a forum discussion).

[Austin01]

Just to spur more discussion, I think we actually need GoogleModerator. GitHub issues are being spammed with feature and game suggestions that should be elsewhere like the forum. I think we need to refactor how things work a little bit because things are a bit scattered at the moment.

[master-lincoln]

agree...github is getting totally cluttered with millions of non developer related discussions

[fierydrake]

Is this about the hats? ;)
I think there will always be a little bit of comment when one feature spurs ideas for others. Provided it moves quickly to another forum that's actually a good thing IMO.

if an issue spurs another idea, make as few posts as possible on the issue (ie 1) saying what idea you have and link to forum/GoogleModerator.

And likewise: if a forum discussion or GoogleMod idea ends up with a concrete feature or finding a bug, make a post on the forum and link to an issue where the implementation details can be discussed.

Generally: right things in their right places, but integration and cross-linking are useful.

[Austin01]

@fierydrake I'm all for integration and having everything centralized but adding the feature suggestions/requests here is just not working. Issues are getting drowned behind from the beginning due to the features. GitHub's system is good, don't get me wrong, but it's too simple to condense it all together.

We could attempt to migrate the ticket's to something that still integrates into GitHub, but it more advanced in the sense we can add categories almost for features, or just put up GoogleMod and leave that for all suggestions where they can be discussed over there.