Change: Improved Sentry Drones #970
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* Update task tags information * Sync DONE tasks between commy2 and NProject task lists
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Co-authored-by: xezon <gentool.net@gmail.com>
…iot, Paladin, Nighthawk, Raptor, Camouflage, SCUD Storm (#425) * Update SpecialPower.ini Scud Storm revert to 5 mins: Nerf was unnecesarry. The main approach of 1.04p is to buff the weaknesses. A nerf is only used in cases where an unfair advantage is present relative to other factions (Air Force chinook e.g.). With the BT included the balance is now like so: Particle Cannon 4+1 minutes, Nuclear Missile 5+1 minutes, Scud Storm 5+2 minutes. * Patriot Defence for Air/USA Air/USA Patriots slight change to $750/25s: Build Time reverted, the trade is a slight price increase again to make the overall change more minimalistic and more predictable for the user. * Update InfantryGeneral.ini Inf Bunker revert build time and price ($700/8s): Nerf was not necessary (see Scud Storm motivation). * Update AmericaAir.ini USA Raptors to $1100: To prevent unpredictable scenarios (potential over-buff), the Vanilla Raptor price reduction has been reverted to match the King Raptor. There should no reason why this inferior unit should be more expensive than the King Raptor. USA Stealth Fighters to $1250: Same scenario, all Stealth Fighters have been matched to the Airforce price. * Update LaserGeneral.ini Laser Raptors to $1100: To prevent unpredictable scenarios (potential over-buff), the Vanilla Raptor price reduction has been reverted to match the King Raptor. There should no reason why this inferior unit should be more expensive than the King Raptor. Laser Stealth Fighters to $1250: Same scenario, all Stealth Fighters have been matched to the Airforce price. * Update SuperWeaponGeneral.ini Super Weapon Raptors to $1100: To prevent unpredictable scenarios (potential over-buff), the Vanilla Raptor price reduction has been reverted to match the King Raptor. There should no reason why this inferior unit should be more expensive than the King Raptor. Super Weapon Stealth Fighters to $1250: Same scenario, all Stealth Fighters have been matched to the Airforce price. * Crusader and Paladin price/build time changes Crusader Tank price revert to 1.04 ($900): Unnecessary buff that potentially can harm balance. Already an effective unit in specific situations. Paladin build time revert to 1.04 (12s): Paladin drops have proved to be quite effective vs GLA's, a build time buff was not necessary. To see better quantities on the field in later game scenarios (relative to Crusader tank), the price reduction to $1000 is maintained. * Laser Crusader price change Laser Crusader price change ($900): Same scenario as Vanilla Crusader. * China Battlemaster price change China BM slight change to $700: Same scenario as the Vanilla Raptor/Stealth Fighter. Price has been matched with Tank's Vetted Battle Master. * Camouflage upgrade price change Camouflage Upgrade to $800: $1000 still seemed like an expensive upgrade for rebels in late game scenarios. Typically the ambush was most useful to capture sniped units like Overlords, killing Hackers or base scouting (to initiate Sneak Attacks), for which level 1 was sufficient without the upgrade. With the upgrade, it might now be viable in certain situations to pick higher level Ambushes and/or use them for different tactical purposes, like 'permanent' base scouting, or making base captures more efficient. * Update game_balance.md Added all the changes, removed any units/buildings which were completely reverted. * Stealth Fighter revert Air Force Stealth Fighters to $1250: Same scenario, all Stealth Fighters have been matched to the Airforce price.
…NI files so it is consistent with the Zero Hour INI files
Add Generals 1.08 INI files for reference
…uring Buildings; Same For Non-Infantry General Hackers Disabling Buildings (#276)
…ize of repository (#444)
* Add latest and missing changes to game fixes document * Add pull request links to game fixes document
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dial up modem handshake |
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A little robot sound would be cool, hope that's enough feedback for the player so behaviour is not perceived as gamelag or bug. |
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Ok how we make this sound? xD |
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Lol :D can reuse some sounds? https://youtu.be/r8OeN72jV0c?t=172
Even if you remove the whole unit from the PvP environment I think noone bats an eye. I honestly think there's no way of improving the unit in PVP, without changing the setup. Facts remain:
Btw, note in the video above how the voiceline says MG should actually be available from the Strat Center, I honestly even believe this will be an improvement. Actually another potentially effective utility could be scouting and killing Hackers, this is only in post-tech scenario anyway. |
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About vision range and stealth detection again, wouldn't it be fair if it's the same as an Outpost? Outpost is much superior at a cheaper price. |
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The Sentry Drone has VisionRange 200. New Outpost will have 150. |
That isn't right? MDs and THs have 400? Outposts have more. What about stealth detection range though? |
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If the deployment behaviour is retained, there definitely needs to be some form of visual distinction. It cannot be solved with sounds alone.
Even with the respective changes? Further enhancements could make it too attractive and alter traditional gameplay.
It's important to distinguish vision range from shroud clearing range. The shroud clearing range is the important factor here.
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We have no decent/accepted proposals regarding MG upgrade yet, it's the root of all problems. So I don't think we're anywhere close to make the unit accessible in any kind of PvP match (noob, semi or pro). *Well maybe in noob only matches, as macro efficiency plays no role here, but I don't think noobs can manage to win games with SD's either. It's usually the pros who are creative (some are robotic af aswell) and have the micro skills to put alternative units to good use. And obviously better players can troll and win vs lesser skilled players in any sort of way. |
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If the Upgrade researchs fairly quick and cheap, when it should be usable, no? |
How about reducing the upgrade from $1000 / 30s to $800 / 20s? |
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I don't think we need to overdo the Sentry Drone. Just fix the bugs and make it a bit more attractive. USA already has massive stealth detection and vision, does the SD really need to buff that up?
Don't think other factors needs to be touched. |
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I suggest to estimate the value of Sentry Gun Upgrade by comparing it with the value provided by the Humvee Tow Upgrade and then price it accordingly. |
I've already tried to clear this up a few times, but let me try to demonstrate the problem a bit better. Here a straight comparison of cost and BT:
It's an improvement over 1.04 (but still):
I feel the comparison is a little weird, Vee has a similar but better performing MG for free.
I don't disagree with your main point. It shouldn't become meta, or spammable. It just needs better accessibility without the huge compromises, so it can be used for specific applications. |
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Both TOW Missile and Sentry Gun are exclusive weapons added to Vehicle. The TOW Missile weapon is likely factually superior to Sentry Gun, e.g. by being able to target Aircraft. I do believe a comparison of both weapons is possible and necessary to determine how good one is compared to the other. This comparison can also help determining if the Sentry Gun itself could be tweaked for its damage capabilities. |
Of course, at the lower end, Humvees have better value, however with the reduced prices and costs, this eventually evens out and then surpasses Humvees. Considering the Sentry Drone Gun being purchased first, it would take roughly 9 units to equalize value. Reducing the machine gun upgrade research time to 10 seconds will roughly halve the number of units to match the time investment.
TOW missiles deal EXPLOSION damage, which is not resisted by a lot of units. Both machine guns are of COMANCHE_VULCAN type, which are resisted by a lot of units (though typically 50%). The DPS vs a tank is thus vastly different when combining both weapons vs a light vehicle or infantry. |
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I don't think SDs will be spammed enough. |
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@Stubbjax
All we want is making the unit more accessible in lower quantities right? Higher quantity value would mean meta (or atleast an alternative meta strat). I'm sure we're all aligned in what we want to achieve here right? We just don't agree with the methods yet, that's ok, we're having a healthy discussion here. |
I don't believe so either. Are you suggesting they are still too expensive / slow to produce? The general consensus seems to be that the proposed changes won't make Sentry Drones good enough to have any meaningful impact on traditional gameplay, while still reducing the disadvantage that typically comes with their use.
That is certainly true, though any cost or build time reduction is going to apply to both low and high quantities. It's important to consider higher quantities, because that's what makes the upgrade viable. It doesn't make as much sense to have an upgrade if only one or two Sentries are ever built.
Absolutely; I'm really not fussed however the problem is approached, I just want the end result to be an interesting, relatively subtle and high quality approach. Would you agree or disagree that the current proposal fits your exact criteria of making the unit more accessible without altering traditional gameplay? |
Yea I don't agree with the proposals yet, I think the graphs show the exact problem, that low quantity still is too inaccessible/slow/invaluable vs the alternative. Ideally the model should show an inverted line. My earlier proposal does do this (per unit upgrade), but I do understand it's controversial. |
Price at $700/8s (unit BT) or around that much is what I'm hinting towards. |
One major reason why I think the comparison is not really valid is the fact that the SD totally relies on the upgrade, $800 for just vision is not worth, unit can not even crush inf either. Whereas TOW is optional depending on the matchup, vs GLA players like Excal even skip it, because it renders the WF useless for a while. When China goes air (Gatlix/Migs) it's a very crucial upgrade, though in some situations it's also good to prioritize Avengers. In USA mirrors it's a super valuable upgrade, it helps alot with harassing Nook collection. Vs Commie Spam in teamgames it's also crucial, Avengers don't offer enough mobility to provide enough cover on the bigger teamgame maps. Overall TOW gives a good extra punch in firepower, but it's still a bonus in most cases. |
100% Agree
It is a good thing, maybe too good, but it's definitely not a role of a surveillance unit, more like a sneaky harrasment unit, if this change goes through, you'll definitely going to be seeing me confusing my enemies to death with them :D The rest of the point do make sense though tbf, it does take ages to repair.
Well at least it's been defined in the game that propaganda heals, where this one isn't, and surely unfitting in this universe, we don't have nanotech/nanobots in this game/timeline nor in USA itself
No I'm saying people will still not use it, that upgrade just sucks as it is, too long and too expensive when you can just get a humvee to do the job, sentry drone has to have a specific purpose or role to justify such an expensive and long upgrade. And currently it isn't, nor is planned to, so reducing the upgrade BT and cost is the best solution imo. |
Improved Sentry Drones so that they don't suck as much. This implementation comprises several proposals from #862. Further adjustments may be necessary, but this should form a solid, low-risk foundation.
Summary of changes:
Footage of changes:
SENTRY.mp4
The footage should hopefully demonstrate the greatly improved responsiveness of the drones, as well as their minor healing ability.
Rationale:
These changes should assist in making Sentry Drones more versatile and provide greater strategic diversity for USA factions to employ, without boosting them too much that they become a primary strategy and change the way USA is typically played.
Fix the broken weapon deployment behaviour
It goes without saying that Sentry Drones would be better off without the strange and invisible “weapon deployment” delay that occurs between firing and moving.
Reduce and standardise prices
Sentry Drones are considerably expensive units for what they do, and a Humvee with a scout drone is almost always a more cost-effective and versatile option. Reducing the price of Sentry Drones from $1000/$850/$800 to $600 would be an effective and low-risk way to boost utility, due to the fact that they serve a very specific purpose that is already readily available elsewhere, and are otherwise never used.
Reduce construction time
Another effective means of increasing utility is to decrease the build time from 10 to 8 seconds. Note that Sentry Drones still require the Sentry Drone Gun upgrade to become useful in combat, which prevents a reduced construction time (and several other improvements) from opening up early Sentry Drone-based strategies and potentially affecting traditional gameplay too much.
Add auto-repair capability
As Sentry Drones cannot rank up, a good addition would be to give them auto-repair capabilities. This would not only distinguish the unit from other vehicles a bit more, but would allow for a unique tactic where players can command the unit to stop and restealth in order to heal up at the cost of time and the opponent likely remembering the unit’s location.l