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Revert "doc: Removed use of gendered pronouns"
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@isaacs may have his commit bit but that does not mean he is at liberty
to land patches at will.  All patches have to be signed off by either
me or Bert.  Isaac, consider yourself chided.

This reverts commit 47d98b6.
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bnoordhuis committed Nov 30, 2013
1 parent da32344 commit 804d40e
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Showing 2 changed files with 3 additions and 3 deletions.
2 changes: 1 addition & 1 deletion src/unix/fs.c
Original file line number Diff line number Diff line change
Expand Up @@ -302,7 +302,7 @@ static ssize_t uv__fs_sendfile_emul(uv_fs_t* req) {
*
* 1. Read errors are reported only if nsent==0, otherwise we return nsent.
* The user needs to know that some data has already been sent, to stop
* them from sending it twice.
* him from sending it twice.

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@docteurklein

docteurklein Dec 1, 2013

typo: it should be "them" here.

*
* 2. Write errors are always reported. Write errors are bad because they
* mean data loss: we've read data but now we can't write it out.
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4 changes: 2 additions & 2 deletions src/unix/stream.c
Original file line number Diff line number Diff line change
Expand Up @@ -679,8 +679,8 @@ static void uv__write_req_finish(uv_write_t* req) {
/* Only free when there was no error. On error, we touch up write_queue_size
* right before making the callback. The reason we don't do that right away
* is that a write_queue_size > 0 is our only way to signal to the user that
* they should stop writing - which they should if we got an error. Something
* to revisit in future revisions of the libuv API.
* he should stop writing - which he should if we got an error. Something to
* revisit in future revisions of the libuv API.
*/
if (req->error == 0) {
if (req->bufs != req->bufsml)
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129 comments on commit 804d40e

@mattfield
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For the love of all, why are we squabbling with each other? Why can't we all just unite under the same banner and fight for what's right and proper rather than bickering. Focus on the real issues at hand and any community will be better for it. None will ever instigate a positive outward change if it's members are too preoccupied with fighting amongst themselves. Leaders will sometimes get it wrong. Very wrong. But please, this "bubble" mentality of community-vs-community is pure poison. I dearly hope we don't divide ourselves even further by pointing fingers. The fact that there's a discussion going on in this thread that actually has to single "community imposters" out is something that's beyond distressing to me.

We do what we do because we enjoy it. Heck, we love it. If we can do anything to encourage anyone who has the same love to participate and be welcomed with open arms, then we should do it. This isn't a club for the few, it's a society for the many.

@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@mattfield we are encouraging anyone and everyone to join our community with the understanding that certain behavior is unacceptable. Accepting bigoted behavior is only inclusive to bigots and is exclusive of everyone else.

@apeiros
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@robgleeson it is. does that change anything about what I said?

@nerdfiles
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@robgleeson I think alternating and writing sporadic genderfication into our Documentation is a bad idea. It will only further promote undisciplined writing.

We should find a way to (a) drop pronouns all together, which ultimately involves (b) rewriting the sentence, or (c) writing with explicitness.

@milani
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@milani milani commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@mikeal I fear @reinh is a ruby guy too and not part of this community.

@AgentAntelope
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I'd like to see more under-represented genders(female, transgender, ..)

@robgleeson Transgender men and women are men and women, not a special separate class. The word you want is non-binary.

@jbrains
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@mattfield, we can't "just", because it's complicated, and knowing "why" seems unlikely to make you feel any better.

I, too, encourage helping everyone feel welcome, and would like to see a little more trust.

@reinh
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@reinh reinh commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@robgleeson All of your criticisms of me have been ad hominem. You haven't even attempted to address the substance of my comments. Think about that for a moment.

Meanwhile, you have given us plenty of evidence that you completely misunderstand the scope and severity of the problem. When you say "this gender issue is becoming a circus in every programming community you go to these days", that's a lot like blaming the people who yell "Fire!" for burning the theater down.

There is a fucking problem. All we're trying to do is point to it and say "this is a problem". And all you're trying to do is say "stop pointing your fingers, it's rude!" I have no patience for people like you.

@dnsco
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@dnsco dnsco commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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As a genderqueer person, I feel repeatedly hurt. It's much easier to try to be sensitive to issues you don't understand, rather than dealing with the shit storm that is sure to come up when you refused to be called on injustices. Thanks to everyone who is working actively to change this culture of oppression. You are heroes. #thanksforbeingwhiteknights

@mattfield
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@mikeal I agree that there should be a clear definition of what's acceptable and what isn't. Free-for-alls will only end in disaster. It's just unfortunate that something that had the potential to unite communities to stand for something right has resulted in this.

@jbrains
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@robgleeson I assume that you feel cast out. I hope that that feeling passes. I'm really sorry that you got hurt here.

@nerdfiles
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Using "it/they/them" decreases findability and grep-ability of the Documentation.

Generally pronouns increase the signal-to-noise ratio.

"The User" or less noise increases the visibility and viability of search hooks.

@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@milani everyone comes from somewhere, and I'll encourage anyone to invest in this community so long as they aren't detrimental to the long term diversity and inclusiveness of our culture. And anyone who is detrimental I will fight to exclude from relevant cultural activity and leadership.

@mattfield
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@jbrains You're right, it's a very complicated issue, I don't deny that. I think there are many "why"s and it's undeniably a steep mountain to climb. I do believe that a strong leadership is needed sometimes to push through these issues. I've seen the JS community accomplish incredible things, and I've not lost faith in it either, despite when things go wrong. I'm not one to dwell in the depths of despondency however - far from it. But you're right. Sometimes, a little more trust would go a long way.

@miah
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@miah miah commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@milani Lets look at your sentence a different way "I fear @reinh is a ruby guy too and not part of this community."

We can have
"I fear person is black, and not part of this white community."
"I fear person is a woman, and not part of this male community."
"I fear person is a man, and not part of this female community."

Also, having "fear" in there..
"I fear person, because they are black."
"I fear person, because they are female."
"I fear person, because they are white."

We should all attempt being nicer, and just try to be more inclusive of people regardless of their race, gender, nationality, or creed.

You have no need to fear others simply because they are different. That is the point of being diverse.

@reinh
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@reinh reinh commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@rninty This is the best comment in this whole thread. ❀️

@milani
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@milani milani commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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@miah Yes, that's the point. We shouldn't treat people differently because we do/don't like their opinions. "FTR @sergiotapia and @robgleeson are, based on their GitHub profiles, Ruby developers and not relate to node.js or libuv outside the context of this thread." 804d40e#commitcomment-4738703

@sintaxi
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I really had no doubt the right thing was going to be done in the end but this revert is pretty embarrassing.

@miah please don't dismiss the JS community as a whole. The overwhelming majority of us want to do the right thing. @mikeal thanks for keeping things on track and clarifying the status of the commit.

To library maintainers everywhere, please don't be terrified of making these kind of mistakes in your docs. It's ok to make mistakes. Making gendered references in writing is very common and easy to slip into. But when you realize you are doing it or someone points it out, please make an effort to correct it. Documentation is simply more accurate and more enjoyable to read without the use of gendered pronouns. This is not a man/women issue, gender is a spectrum (not binary). Unfortunately our vocabulary is broken and outdated for such things so it can be a challenge.

To anyone interested in learning more on the topic of gender classification you may find the following resource helpful...

https://www.genderspectrum.org/understanding-gender

@nerdfiles
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@rninty @reinh Interesting. A perfectly viable solution is treated with satire and praised in sheer account of that, and the argument is contrived to be convincing merely through the gestures of rhetoric. Ultimately the argument is an appeal to the status quo and authority of tradition, both of which are fallacious forms of reasoning.

"somehow"? Search hooks are increased or the signal-to-noise ratio is decreased.

"does not seem"? I'm puzzled as to how this is forceful. Quot capita tot sensus.

I made my argument that Source Code (which includes Documentation) is a sui generis form of written expression. It is not literature, and using what exists today as writing or "significant pieces written in any language" only begs the question.

I gave two fundamental ideas: drop the pronouns or be explicit. These are defensible positions, and they are consistent with the general advice of most, if not all, normative technical documentation guidelines: Rewrite the sentence.

@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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I wrote a slightly longer response to this whole notion that we should be inclusive of diverging opinions and behavior when they are exclusionary.

https://gist.github.com/mikeal/7724521

@nerdfiles
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@robgleeson Judging by the response to my offers, which were good natured, if ultimately lacking "humanism", this entire discussion has become wholly cannibalistic, divisive, and clannish.

@rsslldnphy
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😿

@nerdfiles
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@rninty Normative technical documentation guidelines generally suggest: Rewrite the sentence. That is what norms are all about, restructuring on everybody else, as you put it. That's ultimately what having an opinion is all about. You're defeating the entire possibility of dialectic itself.

"They" is less explicit, increases signal-to-noise, and is less consistent more often than not. Where cases of "they" may seem appropriate, the sentence can be rewritten altogether.

@jfhbrook
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Go rewrite it then, there are enough SHAs for everyone!

@co-dan
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@co-dan co-dan commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013 via email

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@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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has nobody realized yet that this library isn't even in JavaScript and is used not only in node.js but in Rust, Luvit and Julia :)

@mcantelon
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@miah So you're willing to write off the JS community because of issues you have with one person, but don't want others to do the same to the Ruby community for the same reason? Perhaps passing judgement on entire communities because of the opinions of individuals isn't reasonable.

@sintaxi
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@mikeal, libuv was created for the purpose of porting NodeJS to Windows so I don't see a problem with the association though I agree it seems silly this is turning into a conversation about JavaScript. Perhaps that means there is nothing more to say.

@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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FYI Joyent has responded publicly to this issue http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun

@mikesmullin
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townsfolk, put away your pitch forks. the lord of asynchronous input-output grows weary of your boisterous caterwaul.

@azzz
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@azzz azzz commented on 804d40e Nov 30, 2013

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Why did you change "them" and "they" with "him" and "he"? What is about girls?!

@Minidot
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Seriously?

There goes my chance of ever using anything from Joyent. Yes, I'm refusing to use anything from them just because of one person. The actions of people you allow to commit to your repositories can reflect on the entire group.

@mikeal
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@mikeal mikeal commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@davidcelis
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Anybody who thinks this is a "JS Community" issue is delusional. This isn't the JS community, it's the programming and tech community as a whole. This has nothing to do with JavaScript and everything to do with gender exclusivity.

@msikma
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@msikma msikma commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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I don't really understand this. "They" isn't some new word that people recently came up with. It's been used since a very long time ago to refer to a third person in a non gender-specific way. Perfectly valid English. There's just no need to be against such a minor change that makes the language just a bit more amicable to read to the non-male programmers in our industry (and no one needs to be told how male-oriented this industry is).

It's just a really basic sign of respect. C'monnnnnn guys.

@ijroth
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@ijroth ijroth commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@dbarros
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@dbarros dbarros commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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I"m surprised there are no 'his' and 'hers' branches.

@darrenderidder
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The over-reaction from Joyent on their blog is embarrassing and unkind. This was about setting a minimum threshold of contribution (reasonable) and due process for a pull (also reasonable), not grammar.

@i-am-bryan
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Stop blaming Joyent. Person who did it is NOT a Joyent employee.

@jbrains
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@jbrains jbrains commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013 via email

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@wb-stow
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@wb-stow wb-stow commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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Are all of you gender-equality nazis happy now that we have two fucking words changed?

Try not to get your panties in a bunch and next time maybe you won't lose one of your best developers. ;)

(Oh and have fun making programs with Javashit.)

@damien-roche
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I'd love if this turned out to be a selfless sacrifice to prompt the wider discussion about sexism in the tech community.

@jbrains
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@jbrains jbrains commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@damien-roche It could, if we encourage that to happen.

@robotlolita
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@rninty well, @wb-stow did manage to use both in the same post, maybe that could be considered a new record or something! :P

@wstucco
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@wstucco wstucco commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@reinh

No, he is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions and prejudices, as demonstrated by his repeated attempts to derail this thread.

I labeled him a bigot because he was acting like one.

How do you know that the human being you're referring to identifies themselves as a man or that they like being referred to them by using a male pronoun?
You should not generalize when is about gender, because it's serious stuff, you should have asked before writing, OR you should have used the gender-neutral variation.

@miasua
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@miasua miasua commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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Wow @noordhuis. Is your ego and sense of male entitlement so fragile that being inclusive to all genders is a threat to you? XD

@reinh
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@reinh reinh commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@wtsucco Consider it an educated guess based on their apparent privilege and lack of understanding of gender issues. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. But somehow I suspect that you aren't saying this in good faith.

@agraves
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@agraves agraves commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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That post gave me cancer

@wstucco
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@wstucco wstucco commented on 804d40e Dec 1, 2013

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@reinh

I just think everyone is overreacting here.
Ben gave explanation on the reasons why he reverted the commit and I'm ok with that explanation (i.e.: submission rules).
His (or them?) mistake has been underestimating the firing power of the most pugnacious members of gender-equality club.
I can't see any logical reason why he's been be treated like that.

You don't fix a mistake with another mistake (and, we must say, a lot of verbal violence!).
This tweet is ridiculous at best.
Alex turned a perfectly legitimate rejection into a public political debate on questionable matters, and that's clearly the wrong way to deal with this kind of issues.

I think we can be supporters of gender equality without being morons or paying too much attention on the form (from a non native english speaker!) so that the only solution left is removing gender entirely from our languages.
Cultural differences should be taken into account before offending and asking to fire someone in a public post on a corporate blog.
For example, in italian, the singular they or them sounds like you haven't even finish the elementary school.
I know it is perfectly valid english, but it looks really strange to me.
We often have different words for male and female nouns (professor is professore if male, professoressa if female), since user is male (and it doesn't change if female, you just use the female article), we would have used a male pronoun and article (unless we were strictly referring to female users).
It is a rule of the language, it doesn't make all of us sexists.
I think this is the reason why someone (like me) is not throwing rocks at Ben, we understand the mistake was made on good faith and it has nothing to do with gender issues.
Last but not least, this is not the reason why girls aren't in programming.
There were more women programming than today int he 80s when gender issues were a real problem.

@OscarGodson
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@wstucco

  1. His English isn't the problem. Its that he called it trivial, then reverted it (after it was approved by another core contributor) and then was aggressive towards Isaac.
  2. I'm glad you (a male) knows the real reason why women dont want to program. Especially when women are telling you this bothers them and you tell them "no, this isn't actually the problem". Nice.

its easy for people who aren't offended by something to tell the other people who are theyre overreacting. That's the definition of lack of empathy.

@colingourlay
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Ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in the middle of that spectrum or outside of it...

Before responding to this thread, please read this: https://gist.github.com/creationix/5fb9e94fd8d80268c047

If you still think you can add value to the conversation, please do, but if not, let it rest, please.

@reinh
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@reinh reinh commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013

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Apparently the Mute feature doesn't actually prevent comments where I'm mentioned from showing up in my inbox, so I get to read yet another ignorant, offensive screed by some dudebro who thinks he understands and is entitled to tell us all about women's lived experiences despite demonstrating zero knowledge of the relevant research or, you know, that he's listened to what actual women have to say.

@wstucco You have no idea why women (not girls, that's yet another example of your latent sexism) aren't "in programming", so don't presume to tell us. And please stop mentioning me. I don't need yet another brogrammer's ignorant, entitled bullshit in my inbox.

@ryantenney
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nervously-drinking-water

@wstucco
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@wstucco wstucco commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013

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@OscarGordson

  1. the patch was indeed trivial.
  2. "I'm glad you (a male)" and what if I'm a gay male? have you ever considered the idea that judging people from their profile picture is sexist? and stupid...

You're speculating that was rejected because the subject was trivial, but that's not what Ben said, nobody can say Ben rejected the patch because is not interested in gender equality.Just that he rejected the patch because it was trivial.
We are on Github, not on some kind of forum where you post your opinions about life, we talk about managing source code.
That patch was submitted the wrong way, but, most of all, the guy who submitted the patch, instead of talking with the human being responsible of rejecting his proposal, twitted that libuv is 'an hostile library' and implied that Ben was a sexist moron.
That is wrong in many ways and creates a lot of damage to those working on the project and to the project itself.
Next time someone threat to tweet something bad about libuv, are they going to accept the patch?

Speculation is the worst kind of 'lack of empathy'.

@reinh

you're speculating too!
You're calling me sexist just because I'm not a native english writer or speaker.
How kind of you!
In my language girl means just "a young woman", where is the sexism, other than in your mind?
You are not putting facts here, just saying you're right and I'm wrong, by showing off and insulting me.
Women and girls are not in programming because they are taught that programming is 'a boy thing'.
Then they come here, read comments of people like you, and they will have to agree.
Programming is for aggressive people, like you, so 'a boy thing', and leave.
Women don't want to work with people like you, that think their opinions are the law.
They like to discuss about topics, not being pushed away because 'I don't want to be mentioned'.
And, as far as you know, I could be someone actively working toward gender equality, in a country where these issues
are far more serious than a pronoun in code comments.
But you don't care, because you think you're the one who knocks.
Thanks for being so insensitive.
If you don't want to be mentioned, well, you should shut up and stop calling anyone who disagree with you a
'brogrammer's ignorant, entitled bullshit'.
Because that's what kids do and I'm an adult, not a whining baby.

@txdv
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@txdv txdv commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013

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The change is in. The library is about async io. Go fight on reddit or some other forum.

@reinh
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@reinh reinh commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013

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@wstucco Here we go again.

Here's the thing. When you come into a thread and act like a sexist, it doesn't matter if you're really a sexist or actually some sort of secret ninja feminist who just chose to act like a sexist. What matters is your actions, not your intent. People are going to treat you like a sexist for as long as you act like one, and they will be right to do so.

So, when you attempt to bait people who are nominally on your side, when you call gender equality advocates "morons" and their responses "ridiculous", when you use language like "girls" that in context is sexist, and when you claim that gender inequality is not currently a "real problem", you are derailing and marginalizing and you are acting like a sexist and you shouldn't be surprised when someone treats you like one.

I am happy that you have demonstrated more understanding of the issues in your most recent reply. I just don't understand why you decided to act like a sexist first.

@wstucco
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@wstucco wstucco commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013

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@reinh

Thank you for understanding that you can actually talk with people, without bashing them.
But I'd like to point out a few things

  • this is not Facebook, this is Github, I'm talking about this supposed issue from a coder point of view, not because I want to talk about my life, my opinions, my views on the subject.
  • two wrongs don't make a right. Ben made a mistake? let's fix it, without calling him sexist and without tweeting about a non existent 'hostile library' when referring to libuv (I confirm: a ridiculous tweet, I want to believe written out of rage, without thinking of the consequences) or asking to fire him on a corporate blog post. I don't support this behaviour! at all!
    libuv is a great project, used by thousands of people, you are not allowed to talk about it that way just because your submission was rejected for not respecting the procedure. You can't take it personal or turn it into politics. It's just wrong.
  • I'm italian, in my culture calling a woman 'girl' is not sexist. It's just a woman of young age. There's no other single word to describe them. You should probably use more flexibility when communicating with people different from you.
    Jumping straight to the conclusions will lead you to the wrong assumptions, most of the times.
  • I never said that gender equality advocates are morons, just that if you act like one (I'm quoting you) "you shouldn't be surprised when someone treats you like one"
  • I never said gender equality is not a problem just that this is not the place to talk about it and that it was definitely not the problem here.

my country was ruled for almost 20 year by a man called Berlusconi, I swear to God last thing I want in my life is being considered a women abusing a-hole like he is, just because we come from the same place.

this is my last comment on the subject.

@darrenderidder
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@darrenderidder darrenderidder commented on 804d40e Dec 2, 2013 via email

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@isaacs
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@isaacs isaacs commented on 804d40e Dec 3, 2013

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@github Please. Really. We need this, so badly. isaacs/github#38 I'll pay you for it, and I'm guessing that plenty of others will match my bounty.

@danforbes
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