Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

ImreSamu · 2018-10-22T16:25:27Z

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/trade-mark-definition

Different Trademarks exists -

"Caffé Nero" - "Figurative": https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/002133908
"Deutsche Bank" - "Word" : https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/009616988

So same name("Caffé Nero") + Different Logo - probably legal , or at least exists.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Caff%C3%A8-Nero-161842344519308/about/?ref=page_internal

in ideal case - we can show the logos for the user :

( related to "Caffé Nero" - #2108 )

bhousel · 2018-10-22T17:43:15Z

@ImreSamu can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me. We know there will always be other uses of the brand names.

I'd love to be able to show logos in the openstreetmap editor.. Once the entries have been linked to wikidata, we can fetch logos from there, if available. All the logos would first need to be in wiki commons, or we could possibly fetch logos from their social media accounts.

It would be useful to try to link the wikidata ids to logos and see how successfully we can do that.

matkoniecz · 2018-10-22T18:17:58Z

@ImreSamu can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me

Also for me, I have no idea what the trademark problem is supposed to be.

ImreSamu · 2018-10-22T18:50:51Z

can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me

sorry,

My problem is the same: preventing injecting a "false" brand= tags to the database.

When "brand type" == "Word Trademarks" - probably this is not a problem.
When "brand type" == "Figurative Trademark" ( with a logo ) - then it can be a problem,
- the "name=" NOT ALWAYS has the same "brand=" ; Only the logo protected. ; So if the OSM contributor doesn't know the differences ( name!=brand ) - then maybe choosing a name with "bad" brands. The English Wikipedia sometimes not useful if the local user is known only Hungarian language, he/she will accept the default similar values. The average user will not detect the small differences.

my real problem :)

I do have skin in the game

because I need to clean/validate the Hungarian POI data ;
If the "brand type" == ("Figurative Trademark" ) then it is very hard to verify - no thumb of rule.
I need to individually check the website, facebook page - and compare the logos.

And the same name no guarantee - like this "Caffé Nero" is not member the "Caffé Nero" Company ( different logo )

So My real problem, How Can I validate "Figurative Trademark" brands?

matkoniecz · 2018-10-23T08:31:39Z

When "brand type" == "Figurative Trademark" ( with a logo ) - then it can be a problem, the "name=" NOT ALWAYS has the same "brand=" ; Only the logo protected.

Can you give examples of a "Figurative Trademark" brands? I am still unsure what is the problem.

ImreSamu · 2018-10-23T09:57:42Z

As I see - this help to understand:

"FIGURATIVE trademark protects the word (words) in the scope of graphic design. The emphasis is put on the visual part of a trademark." http://www.trademarks-blog.eu/word-or-figurative-trademark/

Can you give examples of a "Figurative Trademark" brands?

"Quick"
- https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/000350918
"Pollo Campero" :
- https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Pollo%20Campero

OSM preset	Brand	Trademark type	Wikidata	Wikipedia	Trademark search in EU
"amenity/fast_food/Potbelly"	Potbelly	Word + Figurative	Q7234777	en:Potbelly Sandwich Works	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Potbelly
"amenity/fast_food/Pollo Campero"	Pollo Campero	Figurative	Q942741	en:Pollo Campero	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Pollo%20Campero
"amenity/fast_food/Qdoba"	Qdoba	Word	Q1363885	en:Qdoba	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Qdoba
"amenity/fast_food/Quick"	Quick	Figurative	Q286494	en:Quick (restaurant)	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Quick
"amenity/fast_food/Quiznos"	Quiznos	Word	Q1936229	en:Quiznos	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Quiznos
"amenity/fast_food/Rally's"	Rally's	??(Not protected in the EU?)	Q3419341	en:Checkers and Rally's	https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Rally's

matkoniecz · 2018-10-23T10:21:51Z

Why trademark type and its legal status is important? We are not tagging that information.

matkoniecz · 2018-10-23T10:22:23Z

And from what I see in table name and brand matches.

bhousel · 2018-10-23T11:23:26Z

And the same name no guarantee - like this "Caffé Nero" is not member the "Caffé Nero" Company ( different logo )
So My real problem, How Can I validate "Figurative Trademark" brands?

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808) from the list in iD when they really mean "Caffé Nero" (a random place that just happens to be called that).

Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

ImreSamu · 2018-10-23T12:28:46Z

sorry my draft english.

Why trademark type and its legal status is important?

imho:

IF "FIGURATIVE trademark "** - THEN Logo/visual is important!

in this case the "brand=" name is not unique!

example - amenity/cafe + Nero

The brand: "Caffé Nero" - with "FIGURATIVE trademark " - can be detected only with LOGO/Visual because "NERO" is a frequent name , and "Nero Caffé" with different Visual can be exist

Now :

"amenity/cafe|Caffè Nero" Linked to -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caff%C3%A8_Nero

Vs.

see: https://www.nero-caffe.hu/ ( Hungarian example )

use case

A NEW hungarian contributor want to add "www.nero-caffe.hu" - POI to the OSM

And "no visual" information in the iD Editor
No english knowledge ( speak only hungarian )
- and hungarian word order is flexible "Nero Caffé" vs. "Caffé Nero" is same meanings.
- No hungarian wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caff%C3%A8_Nero
He/She - has not any information - that the other "Caffé Nero" ( chain) exists - and this is not a member of ( brand:wikidata=Q675808 )

Start typing "Nero"

And select ...

  "amenity/cafe|Caffè Nero": {
    "count": 229,
    "match": [
      "amenity/cafe|Cafe Nero",
      "amenity/cafe|Caffe Nero"
    ],
    "tags": {
      "amenity": "cafe",
      "brand": "Caffè Nero",
      "brand:wikidata": "Q675808",
      "brand:wikipedia": "en:Caffè Nero",
      "name": "Caffè Nero"
    }
  },

And injecting bad tags

"brand": "Caffè Nero",
"brand:wikidata": "Q675808",
"brand:wikipedia": "en:Caffè Nero",

imho: this is ~ Unintended consequences

extra comments

"Caffé Nero" -has a "Green Caffé Nero" brand -> https://greencaffenero.pl/en

amenity=cafe -> Nice classes = 43 "Services for providing food and drink; restaurant and catering services; self-service restaurant services; snack bar services; café services; take-away services; coffee bar and coffee house services; carry out restaurant and take out restaurant services; coffee supply services for offices; office coffee supply services; contract food and drink services; food preparation; preparation of carry out foods and beverages; information, advisory and consultancy services in relation to all the aforesaid."

ImreSamu · 2018-10-23T12:33:29Z

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808)
from the list in iD when they >really mean "Caffé Nero"
(a random place that just happens to be called that).
Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

yes, this is correct.

bhousel · 2018-10-23T13:20:54Z

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808)
from the list in iD when they >really mean "Caffé Nero"
(a random place that just happens to be called that).
Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

yes, this is correct.

Great! Do you agree that the solution to this issue is dependent on downstream projects like iD giving the user enough clues in the UI to make this decision?

I'd really like to show logos if this is possible. Or at least a UI hint that there is some wikidata and maybe the user can hover to view some of the information about the brand? Again, showing logos for every brand is a great stretch goal, but depends on completeness in Wikidata (and maybe this is a thing where OSMers can help).

@ImreSamu - are you ok if I move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

ImreSamu · 2018-10-23T17:29:56Z

@bhousel

I'd really like to show logos if this is possible.
Or at least a UI hint that there is some wikidata
and maybe the user can hover to view some of the information about the brand?

imho: Picture/Logo is important for choosing the correct brand.

(imho) as a long term vision:

maybe we can extend this repo with image links
and/or we can import links via Wikidata properties.

    "tags": {
      "amenity": "fast_food",
      "brand": "McDonald's",
      "brand:wikidata": "Q38076",
      "brand:wikipedia": "en:McDonald's",
      "cuisine": "burger",
      "name": "McDonald's"
    }
    "icon": ""
    "image:logos": [
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%E2%80%99s_gr%C3%BCn_logo.svg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_Golden_Arches.svg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_logo.svg"
    ], 
    "image:outside": {
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_in_Exeter.jpg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_Liberdade_in_Sao_Paulo_002.JPG",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonalds_HongKong.jpg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_in_Brno_(Masaryk_Street).JPG"
    },
    "image:inside": [
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2011-10-25_McDonald%27s_in_Raleigh.jpg"
    ]

Maybe we can reuse wikimedia commons images: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/McDonald%27s
or import image/logo links via Wikidata SPARQL

example: fast food restaurant chains ( image, logo ) : http://tinyurl.com/y8mxc4fu

are you ok if I move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

I understand, that probably I make too much noise with my fears, sorry.
But if possible - please keep this issue open.

I prefer defensive solution ( and solving problems at the roots )

IF has VISUAL(Wikidata.Logo?)
- THEN import Wikidata.Logo Links.
- ELSE not export brand= information - to the release file - because no VISUAL clue.

On the other hand

other projects using this database.( http://vespucci.io/tutorials/name_suggestions/ )
and easier for me validate the metadata here. ( Generate an OSM Brand Catalog - with logo/image )

matkoniecz · 2018-10-23T20:08:41Z

ELSE not export brand= information - to the release file - because no VISUAL clue.

I would leave such filtering for users of the data.

move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

Cafe
Cafe - Nero Cafe brand

should make problems less likely

and/or we can import links via Wikidata properties.

Note that there is an interesting project that allows quick adding images to Wikidata entries, would be useful in adding missing properties before an import to this project - here is my query for objects around Kraków but it should be possible to create one for brands within our index https://tools.wmflabs.org/fist/wdfist/?depth=3&language=en&project=wikipedia&sparql=SELECT%20?item%20WHERE%20{%20SERVICE%20wikibase:around%20{%20?item%20wdt:P625%20?itemlocation%20.%20bd:serviceParam%20wikibase:center%20%22Point(20%2050)%22^^geo:wktLiteral%20.%20bd:serviceParam%20wikibase:radius%20%2215%22%20.%20}}&no_images_only=1&prefilled=1 (via prefilling Wikidata items section)

bhousel · 2018-10-23T20:33:19Z

and/or we can import links via Wikidata properties.

^ This is what I was thinking. Once the wikidata links are established, we can get all kinds of stuff through SPARQL queries. We don't need to mirror the urls or the logos over to this project.

example: fast food restaurant chains ( image, logo ) : http://tinyurl.com/y8mxc4fu

Nice! yeah this is a good start. I clicked through several of these, and I have to admit, Wikidata has pretty poor logo coverage. Another important detail is - for displaying a list of business brand presets in iD, we really want a smallish, squarish, thumbnail image. Many of the wiki commons "logos" are photos of the storefronts or of the signage, or the dimensions are all wrong.

My gut says that we would be better to do:
Wikidata SPARQL -> Twitter (or other) ID -> profile photo URL
(This is maybe a problem to be solved on the iD side)

I understand, that probably I make too much noise with my fears, sorry.
But if possible - please keep this issue open.

No problem, I'm happy to keep it open here.. This is a good discussion 👍

ImreSamu · 2018-10-24T14:27:31Z

My gut says that we would be better to do:
Wikidata SPARQL -> Twitter (or other) ID -> profile photo URL
(This is maybe a problem to be solved on the iD side)

I have added a twitter id to the SPARQL query : http://tinyurl.com/yc7p38hj

ImreSamu · 2018-10-25T12:59:58Z

@matkoniecz

Cafe
Cafe - Nero Cafe brand
should make problems less likely

We need carefully designed UI.
"brand" - has a multiple meaning and context, and an average people don't know the differences.

searching http://www.wipo.int/branddb/en I have found 8 different Caffé Nero ( registered ) brand/logo

for an average hungarian people this is a brand ( lokal, unregistered) :

https://www.nero-caffe.hu/

same domain name - and the name inside ✔️
has a logo - and a name inside ✔️
legal company ✔️
everybody knows - in the city ( local knowledge) ✔️

But not a "global brand" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand#Global_brand_variables

bhousel · 2019-03-11T22:19:10Z

Logos were added in #2422 🎉

good-praxis mentioned this issue Oct 22, 2018

Collection of common issues for FAQ #2099

Open

bhousel mentioned this issue Dec 25, 2018

Add logos to name suggestion presets openstreetmap/iD#5167

Closed

bhousel changed the title ~~"Word mark" vs . "Figurative mark" ( trademark problems )~~ Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses Jan 4, 2019

ImreSamu mentioned this issue Jan 4, 2019

Split up canonical.json? #2243

Closed

bhousel mentioned this issue Mar 11, 2019

Add logos #2422

Merged

bhousel closed this as completed Mar 11, 2019

ImreSamu mentioned this issue Nov 12, 2019

Brand tag linking to non existend logo picture openstreetmap/iD#7028

Closed

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Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

ImreSamu commented Oct 22, 2018

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Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

Comments

ImreSamu commented Oct 22, 2018

bhousel commented Oct 22, 2018

matkoniecz commented Oct 22, 2018

ImreSamu commented Oct 22, 2018

my real problem :)

matkoniecz commented Oct 23, 2018

ImreSamu commented Oct 23, 2018

matkoniecz commented Oct 23, 2018

matkoniecz commented Oct 23, 2018

bhousel commented Oct 23, 2018

ImreSamu commented Oct 23, 2018

example - amenity/cafe + Nero

use case

extra comments

ImreSamu commented Oct 23, 2018

bhousel commented Oct 23, 2018

ImreSamu commented Oct 23, 2018

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