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Hull classification of 海防艦 = PF #1448
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Thank you for you timely information :) |
You're welcome :) |
Matsu-class Destroyers are the realDestroyerEscort so reserve DE for them is a good decision :-) |
Actually, the current situation is that |
An update on the situation, since there has been some interesting development from each side. They had suggested to use only E, but we know full well that only using E is pretty confusing. Hence why we decided to create a list of made up classifications which we let them pick through a poll. Atm, the votes are favoring EE from the looks of it. |
just noticed there's a mentioning of ez exped plugin - as it's developer I'm pretty sure @Tsubakura can we by any chance take a look at the NHHC's statement about neither using PF nor DE? after all I don't feel comfortable inventing a new hull classification for ships that have been existed in history. |
@Tsubakura that's fine, I'm not in need of any formal proof this time xD, just getting some ideas about why would ppl favor one over others, btw if the discussion happened on some discord channel perhaps I can take a look at chatting log. |
I does not recommend changing the cpde away from PF/DE just because of that
as the reason why people argue for the code at the beginning weren't
arguing for it is how USN called them although that do become the most
significant argument for it in later part of the debate; the argument on DE
and PF was that they're the western counterpart to what Japanese called
Kaibokan, and as only they use these kind of codes to address ship classes,
it was suggested by people to adopt thpse western code over onto Japanese
warships. People never called Japanese warships this way, but that's not
what being argued for, the argument was only abput what kind of code in
western world would be best suit for this class.
2017年5月12日 08:15 於 "Javran Cheng" <notifications@github.com> 寫道:
… @Tsubakura <https://github.com/tsubakura> that's fine, I'm not in need of
any formal proof this time xD, just getting some ideas about why would ppl
favor one over others, btw if the discussion happened on some discord
channel perhaps I can take a look at chatting log.
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@c933103 Modern ship classification is based on USN standard, notice that IJN even didn't have a clear classification of carriers (All IJN carriers are called 'Kuubo', including USN's carrier classifications like CV, CVL, CVE, .etc) |
This was brought up, because people will keep insisting that either DE or PF is correct, without letting up. By drawing a consensus here, which is Escort, both are correct and all the debate which has occurred till now would be instantly resolved. |
@Tsuba I thought up till this point the consensus was both codes describe
the role of kaibokan except we need to pick one code out of the two?
While creating a new code might provide a chance to settle the conflict,
such approach would drive us further away from existing standard. Btw can
we get opinion from editors of kancollewiki.net about this?
@東風谷オーシャン The thing is that the NHHC reply quoted above proved the USN does
not actually applies its own classification code onto Kaibokans, and the
staff have made their personal recommendation regarding what would be a
suitable code to be assigned to those escort ships. As such I think it mean
the community could revert to using a code from what we believed to be
western equivalency to the ship class instead of baking out mew code
ourselves.
2017年5月12日 14:50 於 "Tsubakura" <notifications@github.com> 寫道:
… This was brought up, because people will keep insisting that either DE or
PF is correct, without letting up. By drawing a consensus here, which is
*Escort*, both are correct and all the debate which has occurred till now
would be instantly resolved.
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Also, people on 4chan seems inclined toward the usage of DE
|
I would really never use the people of 4chan as a basis to deciding matters, especially since they don't really know anything about history. The goal here is to settle on matters regarding historical accuracy, while at the same providing a standard that everyone can use. I intended to invite Javran over to our group chat, but I haven't had a reply of the invitation yet. So I'll just paste the arguments over here and let you guys decide on the matter. Arguments that the Kaiboukan should be DE (Destroyer Escort):
Arguments that the Kaiboukan should be PF (Patrol Frigate):
Arguments that the Kaiboukan should be EE (Escort):
Arguments that the Kaiboukan should be KB (Kaiboukan):
I have personally drawn a conclusion from all the info that we have gathered from the historians, so I let you guys decide on this matter. |
Very detailed information, impressive. Personally I'll be OK with kancolle wikia staff's final decision because each choice is enough reasonable, although KB makes me feel most familiar as a kanji/character user, and I've decided to use 海防 as abbreviation in my recent code for non-English interface. |
As listed in http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_ships_list.php DE referred to the following: Destroyer Escort, Escort or "Ocean Escort." The ships in question are Escorts, so DE fits that. To address the PF arguments above:
It also used DE for other kaibokan ships: http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/id/oni222j-japan-navy/pg115.htm These were wartime intelligence reports to begin with, so they relied on incomplete information and they were made for people who were concerned with combat, not terminology.
USS Evarts DE-5 had a displacement of between 1140 long tons standard and 1450 t full load. You did not post DE specifications. You apparently posted something inspired by Article 8, which only says the treaty limits the numbers of ships that meet the requirements. You posted nonsense, since a 155cm gun is more than three times larger than Yamato's main guns. You said 155, not 15.5, and besides, the treaty defines ships with 15.5cm guns as cruisers, so trying to claim destroyers or destroyer escorts are required to have 15.5cm guns is nonsense. If you're copy/pasting from someone else, you were trolled. Furthermore, the claim was "are subject to." If something doesn't meet the requirements of the treaty's Article 8, that just means there's no limit on how many of them can be built. That has nothing to do with what counts as a destroyer or destroyer escort. Article 15 defines destroyers as surface vessels of war the standard displacement of which does not exceed 1850 tons, and with a gun not above 5.1-inch (130mm). It doesn't set any minimum.
Destroyer escorts (DE) are not destroyers (DD). Destroyer escorts can't effectively replace destroyers, and the DDE designation exists for full-fledged destroyers performing escort duties.
Not according to the site you linked to earlier, http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kaibokan.htm Provide some evidence for your claim.
According to wikipedia, type C and D Escorts , which were numbered by Japan rather than named, were classified PF, and US DE's were F, but Etorofu-class ships like Tsushima and Fukue didn't have classifications shown there and I haven't found anything with theirs yet. The list did have one mixing DD with PF: ROCN Xin Yang DD-15 (PF-82, ex IJN Hatsuume). Since there's inconsistencies, the ROCN wouldn't be a reliable source. It probably classified things based on how it was going to use them rather than just ship characteristics.
USS Evarts DE-5 armament, according to wikipedia (if you don't like wikipedia, link an alternative): Shimushu's armament:
KB only makes sense to people who know the Japanese word. Anyone who isn't familiar with it or who tries to look it up in a historical list of classifications will need an explanation. And of course, EE and KB are just made up, not real designations. |
Glad that there's still so many history enthusiasts who are willing to participate in this debate. FYI, I have forwarded your points to this thread so I recommend that you should go there as well for the discussion. |
A clarification on the usage as per the thread: |
Seems the community chose |
Hello everyone, its Tsubakura of the wikia here.
After a very long debate in deciding whether to use DE or PF, we have obtained proof that the 海防艦 should be classified as PF. The document is a reference manual of the USN in 1945, so I can assure you that it's accurate.
On a side note, I have seen that you guys have used the term DDE instead. DDE refers to full fledged destroyers that were refitted after the war for ASW purposes. The Kaiboukan are not destroyers, so DDE classification makes no sense at all.
With this, I hope that we all get to the same wavelength so that there won't be any inconsistencies across each info sources.
Best regards,
Tsubakura
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