status quo: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler #70

MidasLamb · 2021-03-19T21:27:34Z

Created a new status quo

nikomatsakis

Thanks for this story! I'm really happy somebody tried to write about this part of the experience. I left a bunch of suggestions. I think my main theme here is that I think it would be great if we can make the story more specific and detailed. I realize you were trying to be generic but I think the story will read better and have more impact if it's actually telling us precisely what Alan did and how it impacted him -- like, he comes from Go, he used async-std, the library he tried to add was foo and it required tokio, etc. We can use the FAQ to indicate what it might look like if he came from JS instead, say.

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler.md

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-20T08:45:15Z

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler.md

+He runs his project but is suddenly greeted with a runtime error? How is this even possible? His project doesn't contain any out-of-bounds accesses, he never uses `.unwrap` or `.expect`?
+At the top of the error message he sees: `This async thing needs to run in the context of this other async library, and not the one you are using.` 
+
+Coming from a "simpler" async country, he now learns about Executors, Wakers, `Pin`,... Things he had not need to heed in _GC'd language_. 


How does he learn about those things? I guess he is reading some docs? What docs is he reading and how did he find them?

Also, it's interesting that Pin is in this list, because it's not really relevant to the problem. This isn't to say it shouldn't be there, I think the moral to call out is that just from this one little error, Alan started to get a firehose of information that is kind of overwhelming and he doesn't know which bits are relevant and which are not.

I realize this also sounds pretty similar to #48 -- maybe we can reference the story -- e.g. to say "if you'd like to learn more about the confusion from that, well, that's another story" and link to it.

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-20T08:46:53Z

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler.md

+
+But now he realizes that there is a whole new area of runtime problems that he did not have to deal with in _GC'd language_, but he does in Rust.
+Can he even trust the Rust compiler anymore? What other kinds of runtime problems can occur in Rust that can't in _GC'd language_?
+If his projects keep increasing in complexity, will other new kinds of runtime problems keep popping up? Maybe it's better to stick with _GC'd language_, since Alan 


Oh, Alan, say it ain't so!! This is a great ending. It made me sad. :)

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler.md

dbofmmbt · 2021-03-21T16:00:01Z

I feel a lot like Alan. An annoying situation which is happening to me in async Rust is having to handle dependencies which needs different versions of the same runtime (tokio's transition to 1.0). I feel like "doing cargo's work" when I have to find the right combination of features and versions on my dependencies just to be able to run my code without panics.

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-22T14:49:30Z

@eduardocanellas Hmm, that's interesting, and it'd be helpful to have a story about that. It feels a bit like a distinct story from this one, I think? I will open an issue based on your comment, I think.

EDIT: Opened #79

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-22T20:12:28Z

Checking in: @MidasLamb, how are you feeling about the various suggestions here? Do you think you'll have time to do some revisions to the story? :)

MidasLamb · 2021-03-22T20:18:11Z

@nikomatsakis I've briefly scanned through them and it's very good feedback. I'm trying to find the time to sit down and read them thoroughly and incorporate it, but I'm struggling with finding that spare time atm. Hopefully somewhere the coming days or at least the coming weekend!

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-22T20:36:15Z

Great, no rush. Thanks!

rylev · 2021-03-24T10:00:32Z

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler.md

@@ -0,0 +1,104 @@
+# 😱 Status quo stories: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler


This title made me think this story would be a happy one with Alan reaching a point where he trusts the compiler. In fact, the opposite is true.

Perhaps another title would be more descriptive: "Multiple Async Runtimes Erode Alan's Trust in the Rust Compiler"

I understand what you mean, but I think that your suggestion misses the build up of trust that I personally went through.
What do you think about:

"Alan started trusting the Rust compiler, but then he encountered async"
or

"Alan started trusting the Rust compiler, but then... async"

I think that that captures the build up as well as already showing that this isn't going to be a story with a happy ending

I like those

I'd run with the second one, myself

Remember the story isn't over, this is just where async is now. Alan trusts there will a shiny future where async programming is as gotcha free as it can be.

nikomatsakis

I just read the latest draft -- the code examples really help bring the story to life, thank you! The only thing I think this needs before merging is to tweak the FAQs. Thanks @MidasLamb!

rylev · 2021-03-24T16:39:10Z

This somewhat addresses issue #47

Also added an extra section on the positive effects that trying to get into async Rust had on Alan.

Merge upstream

MidasLamb · 2021-03-24T20:22:27Z

This somewhat addresses issue #47

@rylev, I think the angle of approach is different. I think it boils down to:

This story: Wow, async Rust is a whole new can of worms
accidentally mixing two runtimes #47 : Barbara knows of the challenges of async Rust, but still had troubles with it.

Does this make sense? I'm not quite sure how to articulate it well what I'm trying to get across

nikomatsakis

Nice :)

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler_but_then_async.md

…but_then_async.md Co-authored-by: Niko Matsakis <niko@alum.mit.edu>

nikomatsakis

This looks ready to merge to me -- I left one nit or two.

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler_but_then_async.md

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-25T12:54:35Z

src/vision/status_quo/alan_started_trusting_the_rust_compiler_but_then_async.md

+He runs his project but is suddenly greeted with a runtime error? How is this even possible? His project doesn't contain any out-of-bounds accesses, he never uses `.unwrap` or `.expect`?
+At the top of the error message he sees: `thread 'main' panicked at 'there is no reactor running, must be called from the context of a Tokio 1.x runtime'` 
+
+He searches what "Tokio" is in Rust, and he finds that it also provides an attribute to put on `main`, namely `[tokio::main]`, but what is the difference with `[async_std::main]`? His curiosity leads him to watch videos/read blogs/scour reddit,... on why there are multiple runtimes in Rust. This leads him into a rabbit hole and now he learns about Executors, Wakers, `Pin`,... He has a basic grasp of what they are, but does not have a good understanding of them or how they all fit together exactly. These are all things he had not need to know nor heed in C#. (Note: there is another story about troubles/confusion that might arise when learning all these things about async: [Alan hates writing a `Stream`](./alan_hates_writing_a_stream.md))


<3 the cross ref

…but_then_async.md Co-authored-by: Niko Matsakis <niko@alum.mit.edu>

rylev

🎉

nikomatsakis · 2021-03-26T09:48:49Z

Thanks @MidasLamb, this is great!

MidasLamb · 2021-03-26T18:13:20Z

Thanks @MidasLamb, this is great!

No problem! I'm just happy to help! 😄

status quo: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler

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Created a new status quo

nikomatsakis requested changes Mar 20, 2021

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nikomatsakis mentioned this pull request Mar 22, 2021

version incompatibility with async libraries #79

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MidasLamb added 2 commits March 23, 2021 20:59

Use explicit GC'd language and async library

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Add code examples and make some parts more explicit

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rylev reviewed Mar 24, 2021

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nikomatsakis requested changes Mar 24, 2021

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MidasLamb mentioned this pull request Mar 24, 2021

Alan becomes a better C# programmer #84

Closed

MidasLamb and others added 4 commits March 24, 2021 20:56

Changed morals based on PR-feedback and Spider-Man effect

00ba256

Also added an extra section on the positive effects that trying to get into async Rust had on Alan.

Renamed the status quo story

6ac9bcb

Merge pull request #1 from rust-lang/master

dd05dbc

Merge upstream

Link to 'Alan hates writing a Stream'

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nikomatsakis approved these changes Mar 24, 2021

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nikomatsakis reviewed Mar 25, 2021

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…but_then_async.md Co-authored-by: Niko Matsakis <niko@alum.mit.edu>

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eminence mentioned this pull request Mar 26, 2021

Add a status quo story about Barbara's first async playground #94

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…but_then_async.md Co-authored-by: Niko Matsakis <niko@alum.mit.edu>

rylev approved these changes Mar 26, 2021

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nikomatsakis merged commit be378fc into rust-lang:master Mar 26, 2021

nikomatsakis added the status-quo-story-ideas "Status quo" user story ideas label Apr 18, 2021

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status quo: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler #70

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		@@ -0,0 +1,104 @@
		# 😱 Status quo stories: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler

status quo: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler #70

status quo: Alan started trusting the Rust compiler #70

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