CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ZE is way to similar to 3 #422
Comments
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Just for reference, there was a discussion about this issue in Iosevka last year, and putting a flat top on the numeral three was the best solution come up with there as well. |
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Joseph Winters <notifications@github.com> writes:
Just for reference, there was a
[discussion](be5invis/Iosevka#184) about
this issue in Iosevka last year, and putting a flat top on the numeral
three was the best solution come up with there as well.
Thanks. The thread was very informative.
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Mind posting some screenshots of the typefaces that you feel distinguish these glyphs well? What is your use case here? Are you using the fonts in source code or elsewhere? If in source, are you mixing Cyrillic in the source or is this something that you are using in string literals/comments? |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Mind posting some screenshots of the typefaces that you feel
distinguish these glyphs well? What is your use case here? Are you
using the fonts in source code or elsewhere? If in source, are you
mixing Cyrillic in the source or is this something that you are using
in string literals/comments?
pt mono and monofur distinguish them well
https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/pt-mono
https://www.dafont.com/monofur.font
It appears that monoid has alternatives[1] mechanism for 3
https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/monoid
[1] Not a typographer so my knowledge of the proper nomenclature is
limited, sorry.
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Mind posting some screenshots of the typefaces that you feel
distinguish these glyphs well? What is your use case here? Are you
using the fonts in source code or elsewhere? If in source, are you
mixing Cyrillic in the source or is this something that you are using
in string literals/comments?
Forgot about use case, there are times when I browse the web in a
terminal with links [1]. On few occasions milliseconds or even seconds
were spent on trying to diffirentiate what I've just read (S9 З3 are the
most glaring examples). Almost no monospaced font is immune to S9, PT
Mono adds what can almost be qualifed as serifs to S and it helps some,
monofur has old style figures which also helps.
As far as I can tell all Vera Mono derivatives suffer fom S9 - it's very
hard to tell at a glance if you are looking at S or 5 (the reverse is
not true for MOST faces.
Along with PT Mono and monofur S9 situation is better with:
unifont née misc fixed
anonymous pro
cmu typewriter text regular
latin modern mono
nimbus mono
[1] http://links.twibright.com/download.php
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Thanks for the additional information. Can you let me know what size you are using to view the glyphs and what platform you are on? |
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Also see #423 (comment). You posted in that thread that you are using v2.019 builds. Let's get you current so that we can confirm that this is an issue with the changes that occurred as of v3.x releases. |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Thanks for the additional information. Can you let me know what size
you are using to view the glyphs and what platform you are on?
I'm on linux. And the best answer to the first question i can come up
with is - i don't know, there are so many variables here... I use custom
fontconfig configuration (link to the way i do thing was sent
previously), i also had to add `xrandr --dpi 152x152' to my .xinitrc to
sctually match the physical characteristics of my monitor, etc etc...
Maybe it would be better if you could describe what environment would be
ideal so that i can see if it's reproducible there... (Start terminal
with particular set of options, run emacs and set frame font to this or
that, visit a web page, pango-view ...) I just can't find any reasonable
defintion of "size", sorry :(
FWIW my configuration is at: https://github.com/moosotc/snippets
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Mind opening any text editor on your Linux distro (Sublime Text, Atom, LibreOffice Writer etc) with your current settings, define Hack as the display typeface, and view a sample of these glyphs across text sizes 8 - 14. These are our target design ranges and where we will work on optimizations. You will be able to modify the font settings in the suggested text editors to do this. When we talk about improvements in shapes for a typeface, we are discussing different shapes on the screen at every text size because there is a constraint on the number of pixels that can be displayed to you. This leads to significant problems with differentiation of shapes at smaller text sizes because there is not much to work with for similar shapes. Sometimes when you address that issue, you create an undesired appearance at larger text sizes. We need to know what sizes are affected in order to determine whether design changes alone address it or whether we need to drill down into the instruction sets that push pixels here and there at specific sizes. Don't modify your system settings. It is possible that you are causing a problem in our fonts with custom settings, but that is helpful information for us. I can verify against default fontconfig settings for some distros on my development VM's once I have a better understanding of the issue. |
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But update those fonts before you do any of this! Let's work in current build of Hack :) |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Mind opening any text editor on your Linux distro (Sublime Text, Atom,
LibreOffice Writer etc) _with your current settings_, define Hack as
the display typeface, and view a sample of these glyphs across text
sizes 8 - 14. These are our target design ranges and where we will
work on optimizations. You will be able to modify the font settings
in the suggested text editors to do this. When we talk about
improvements in shapes for a typeface, we are discussing different
shapes on the screen at every text size because there is a constraint
on the number of pixels that can be displayed to you. This leads to
significant problems with differentiation of shapes at smaller text
sizes because there is not much to work with for similar shapes.
Sometimes when you address that issue, you create an undesired
appearance at larger text sizes. We need to know what sizes are
affected in order to determine whether design changes alone address it
or whether we need to drill down into the instruction sets that push
pixels here and there at specific sizes.
Sorry don't have any of those, following reproduces the problem though:
$ pango-view --font='hack 15' --text='asxaxЁЖЗxasxas'
ZHE really stands out there.
Don't modify your system settings. It is possible that you are
causing a problem in our fonts with custom settings, but that is
helpful information for us. I can verify against default fontconfig
settings for some distros on my development VM's once I have a better
understanding of the issue.
My custom settings are there to be reproducible, the settings are:
disable hinting
disable rgba
provide some metric aliases
do not rely on distribution "defaults"
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
But update those fonts before you do any of this! Let's work in
current build of Hack :)
Sure :)
Screenshots of windows created by:
$ pango-view --font='hack 16' --text='asxaxЁЖЗxasxas'
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
But update those fonts before you do any of this! Let's work in
current build of Hack :)
https://boblycat.org/~malc/hack-issue.html
When using chromium i can easily see the issues with hack:
S5, ЁЖЗ, 3З
(Kerning section is just my testing template, most of the entries
kern fine with Hack)
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Thanks for the additional data. On the list to review. |
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Came across this issue on packaging today:
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As Chris mentioned, flat top three now part of the alt-hack repository. |
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@moosotc If you have a chance to build sets with the new design that Pavel pushed to the alt-hack repository, I would be very interested to hear your thoughts about whether this addresses your issue here. See #422 (comment) for additional information and link. Build documentation is available on the alt-hack repository README. Happy to help if you have any issues with this. |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
@moosotc If you have a chance to build sets with the new design that
Pavel pushed to the alt-hack repository, I would be very interested to
hear your thoughts about whether this addresses your issue here.
See
#422 (comment)
for additional information and link. Build documentation is available
on the alt-hack repository README. Happy to help if you have any
issues with this.
The build instructions are not for the faint of heart, i.e. not me. I'd
gladly build things if given exact - step by step instructions of what
to do ("follow the instructions at git://.../..." is not enough, too
many chances of getting some minute detail wrong and screwing up the
result)
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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@moosotc Ah, OK. No problem. I've given thought to automation of the alternate builds in the form of a GUI application or simple to execute script. Perhaps that would be a worthwhile move. Time... |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
@moosotc Ah, ok. No problem. I've given thought to automation of the
alternate builds in the form of a GUI application or simple to execute
script. Perhaps that would be a worthwhile move. Time...
FWIW not a fan of GUIs, script would be perfect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxRDTfzgpU
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Here is a build at commit c1c7c62 with the alternate numeral three designs that were contributed to the alt-hack repo by @ledokol. These also include his contribution of the ruble glyph and extension of the Cyrillic set te glyph (U+0442) horizontal stroke that will be part of the upcoming Hack v4.000 release. This does not include all planned changes that will be in the 4.000 release of Hack, but we are nearly there so it gets you pretty darn close. It does include all planned changes to the Cyrillic sets. The font family was renamed to HackCy and these fonts are versioned as v1.000; DEV. This is a custom build just for you and users of the Cyrillic sets who are affected by this problem quite simply because the Hack project ❤️ you :) Enjoy! If you need web fonts you can build them off of these files using a service like Font Squirrel. CSS files can be based off of the CSS files in the build directory of this repository. |
Will be in touch when time opens up to work on this. |
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BTW you can use https://github.com/chrissimpkins/fontname.py if you would like to name the files in #422 (comment) to a different family name. |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Here is a build at commit
c1c7c62
with the alternate numeral three designs that were contributed to the
alt-hack repo by @ledokol. These also include his contribution of the
ruble glyph that will be part of the upcoming Hack v4.000 release.
This does not include all planned changes that will be included in the
4.000 release of Hack, but we are nearly there so it gets you pretty
darn close.
The font family was renamed to HackCy and these fonts are versioned as
v1.000; DEV. This is a custom build just for you and users of the
Cyrillic sets who are affected by this problem quite simply because
the Hack project ❤️ you :)
Enjoy :) If you need web fonts you can build them off of these files
using a service like Font Squirrel. CSS files can be based off of the
CSS files in the build directory of this repository.
[HackCy-1.000.tar.gz](https://github.com/source-foundry/Hack/files/2120954/HackCy-1.000.tar.gz)
Thanks!
Tried it. Like the result. To me HackCy 1.000 looks very similar to the
Iosevka[1] variant[2] i've settled on a while ago.
3 vs З is solved as far as i'm concerend (luckily i don't really read
much abkhazian otherwise CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ABKHASIAN DZE would
have annoyed the hell out of me)
(Ze aside heftiness of Zhe (both cases) remains)
My testing process is described in this video [3]
[1] https://be5invis.github.io/Iosevka/
[2] https://github.com/moosotc/snippets/blob/master/bin/configure/iosevka
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhMRAjX95k0
P.S. Why is heart followed by a varinat-selector 16?
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Issue report for Zhe still open. If someone doesn't get to it first I will address it down the road. I do not know what a varinat-selctor 16 is. It was rendered with the Github markdown |
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Issue report for Zhe still open. If someone doesn't get to it first I
will address it down the road.
I do not know what a varinat-selctor 16 is. It was rendered with the
Github markdown `:heart:`
To quote unicode codecharts:
Variation selectors
These are combining characters; in conjunction with the
preceding character they indicate a predetermined choice of
variant glyph.
FE00 �
VARIATION SELECTOR-1
• these are abbreviated VS1, and so on
FE01 �
VARIATION SELECTOR-2
[..snip..]
VARIATION SELECTOR-14
Emoji-specific variation selectors
For documentation about use of these with emoji, see UTS
#51, Unicode Emoji.
FE0E �
VARIATION SELECTOR-15
= text variation selector
FE0F �
VARIATION SELECTOR-16
= emoji variation selector
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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Chris Simpkins <notifications@github.com> writes:
Issue report for Zhe still open. If someone doesn't get to it first I
will address it down the road.
I do not know what a varinat-selctor 16 is. It was rendered with the
Github markdown `:heart:`
Oh. I just read (and replied) to this issue report via e-mail and my MUA
showed me a heart followed by a VS16 generic substitution (guess m17n
that Emacs and by extension this MUA (Gnus) uses does not handle emoji
selector gracefuly)
FWIW https://boblycat.org/~malc/scratch/vs16.png is what i've got.
…--
mailto:moosotc@gmail.com
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A lot of domestic typefaces make the upper part of 3 be a straight line not a curve, thus making things easily distinguishable. monofur does that too (even though it has old style figures and the problem is less acute)
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