Advanced tools are medium sized, toolboxes can carry medium sized items.

[GuillaumePrata]

About The Pull Request

Makes the tier 2 tools be Medium sized instead of Small.
To be clear, this doesn't affect them being carried inside belts in any way.

The toolboxes were literally a reskinned box that did more damage while being bulky.
A box was better at carrying tools than a toolbox... letting them carry medium sized items should shift that around cleanly.

Heirloom toolbox doesn't get the buff to carry size since they can be carried inside a bag.

Why It's Good For The Game

Oh boye here comes a long Item Economy talk sponsored by "Being sick and doing something "meaningful" as distraction"!

We have multiple ways to balance an Item "desirability" and I feel the advanced tools score too high on that field.
But lets explain that "desirability" properly first, it would be some weird equation between intended use/effectiveness, cost to acquire and cost to use.

• 1: Intended use/effectiveness is a giant can of worms and different for each item but I'm sure you get it's core.
• 2: Cost of acquiring on SS13 is a few things, material cost, research cost, credit cost to purchase, time to acquire AKA asking/stealing/just walking to a vending machine, etc.
• 3: Cost to use would be energy/ammo, cooldowns, limited use/replacing, weight to carry, etc.

Now let's look at the Tier 2 tools and... Most of them don't have a cost that the end user actually cares about, so they are meaningless to them...

• Intended use... they score high on that, print 30 jaws of life/laser saws and put them outside the bar, see how quickly they get grabbed by people. It's pseudo AA or a 17 force sharp weapon that goes into your pocket.
• Material cost is something that miners deal with, research is with science, lathe tax to print is too small.
• They don't use energy/ammo, have no cooldown, don't degrade...

So what the end user has to deal with is their weight... Which is basically nothing since you can carry 49 of them in a bag at the moment. No one is making the hard decision of "To carry or not to carry?" a Jaws of Life in a round, they just do it.

With this change, going for an upgraded tier 2 tool won't be an 100% improvement for everyone at every time and instead a choice that you have to make and will change from round to round. You might have room to keep a laser saw for self defense in a shift and opt to throw it away for a baton in another instead of just keeping the baton AND the laser saw inside your box.

Why It's Good For The Game not a wall of text edition:

The current version of these items is something that 99% of the players would opt in to grab every shift if they can.

All upsides with no downsides is bad design, encouraging the players to make the choice of grabbing tools or not makes more interesting rounds when something go wrong and they think: "I'm glad I sacrificed some inventory space for this jaw, it saved my life." or "I should have grabbed a Jaw, I wouldn't have died if I did." instead of every round being "Hahaha Jaws go brrrrr!"

Changelog

🆑 Guillaume Prata
balance: Tier 2 tools (Jaws of life/Laser scalpel/Experimental welder) are changed from Small to Medium sized so now you can't carry 49 Jaws of life in your backpack.
/:cl:

[TemporalOroboros]

Will this still permit a full toolset in the relevant belt/a toolbox?

[GuillaumePrata]

Will this still permit a full toolset in the relevant belt/a toolbox?

It won't affect toolbelts but it will affect toolboxes as they are a generic box basically.

[Gandalf2k15]

Toolboxes should probably be able to hold powertools

[GuillaumePrata]

Toolboxes should probably be able to hold powertools

They are just reskined boxes code wise at the moment, if they should be buffed to carry medium sized items or just eng gear like toolbelts do it should be in another PR defending reasons to do that.

I do think it would be a nice change tho.

[kopoba]

I read this request 3 times and still don't understand why its good for the game. Can you say it more simple way without wall of text please.

[GuillaumePrata]

I read this request 3 times and still don't understand why its good for the game. Can you say it more simple way without wall of text please.

Fucking fair point and I will fix that lol

[D4C-420]

This looks like it affects the nukies version of the jaws of life. Given how much nukies already carry I don't think that their jaws of life should be made larger .
Also this will just lead to people finding and grabbing belts to carry advanced tools instead.

[GuillaumePrata]

This looks like it affects the nukies version of the jaws of life. Given how much nukies already carry I don't think that their jaws of life should be made larger .

Good point on the nukies, I will fix that.

Also this will just lead to people finding and grabbing belts to carry advanced tools instead.

You can't print 30 toolbelts from a lathe so I don't see this as an issue for this case specifically.
The belt has it's own pros/cons and price to acquire.

[ilikesaying]

You can't print 30 toolbelts from a lathe so I don't see this as an issue for this case specifically. The belt has it's own pros/cons and price to acquire.

Public Botany

[GuillaumePrata]

Public Botany

If people want to spend a few minutes growing toolbelts at public botany, power to them.
Even with a toolbelt you are still forcing yourself to carry a medium sized item (the toolbelt) instead of a small sized item inside a box so the goal still is achieved either way.

[private-tristan]

medical nerf :(
can no longer jam my gamer gear into my medkit and still have some stuff in there

[GuillaumePrata]

medical nerf :(
can no longer jam my gamer gear into my medkit and still have some stuff in there

It actually won't affect them (as much) because they work like toolbelts and have an allowed list.

[Shadowflame909]

Is this actually a problem? The only one with jaws of life are usually just the CE/Engi.

With multiple ways of getting into a department, by the time this is printable. Someone going around jaws of lifing doors shouldn't be an issue, because the shift should be either extended lite. Or on the verge of destruction and its necessary to have such power-tools.

[GuillaumePrata]

Is this actually a problem? The only one with jaws of life are usually just the CE/Engi.
With multiple ways of getting into a department, by the time this is printable. Someone going around jaws of lifing doors shouldn't be an issue, because the shift should be either extended lite. Or on the verge of destruction and its necessary to have such power-tools.

This has nothing to do with to goal of the PR, tools are meant to be used and if people are using Jaws of life and others to survive/make their lives easier, they are working as intended.
If making less people use it was the goal, a PR making them harder to unlock/print or bulky sized would be the right move.
This PR was made to push a decision into the end player, if they will "spend" a slice of their inventory that is more in line with the power of those tools.

[Palpetinus]

I don't really understand. Why can't an upgrade just be an upgrade? Why do upgrades need drawbacks for some reason?
What's the drawback (after printing etc.) of t4 stock parts? Crew Pinpointer over Proximity Crew Pinpointer? BS Body Bag? Advanced Health Analyzer? To go further, advanced wound tending surgeries are also just upgrades without drawbacks. Advanced Plasmacutter? Mining Satchel of Holding?

They're time gated, cost more resources, need Sci to cooperate, need Mining to not sit on its hands this shift and after all that.. they're not even just upgrades anymore, but tradeoffs? Weird, definitely leaves a sour taste in my mouth just thinking about it.

[GuillaumePrata]

I don't really understand. Why can't an upgrade just be an upgrade?

You are missing the point of the PR, most of your examples are useful only for 1 department.
They aren't something that 99% of the players would want to have on them all the time so there is a decision making into opting to carry an advanced plasma cutter/crew pinpointer/BS bodybag. "Will this help me this round?"
There is no decision making on a Jaws/Laser saw, they are too valuable for anyone that can get one regardless of job.

[Palpetinus]

they are too valuable for anyone that can get one regardless of job

They are valuable because they can fit into boxes easily. Nobody will take a laser scalpel anymore for 17 force, they'll take a saw for 15 because it's easy to get or a spear for 18-20 instead. I already see them used very rarely because it still needs people to tide into medbay, hope the research is done and hope the miners actually mined.
Jaws of Life are just a tool for convenience, hacking and knowing which wire to pulse is de facto faster than the jaws, so jaws are just noob bait anyway
And all of this doesn't even address the rest: I get the scalpel for force or jaws for convenience, but the hand drill? Nobody would ever get a tool over just a box with two tools and 5 spare spaces. Same with the experimental welding tool, sure it's infinite but in its place I could just carry an industrial welding tool and have - again - 6 spare spaces for other small items. I could go on.
All this PR will ultimately do is punish players that later into the round just want to help where they can by storing a full set of tools in boxes and helping out other departments.
You're seeing a problem where there is only one on paper by just comparing a few items in a vacuum, instead of seeing the full picture. Besides Jaws - which arguably could be normal, that one I agree on - none of the advanced tools are used by people outside of the department, unless they specifically want to fill that department's role.

I suppose if this goes through, I'll have to roundstart tide the departments for belts (one of which is very limited). Oh well.

[Pickle-Coding]

The problem is everyone can get every tool easily and fit them into their storages easily, then be able to do everything. Hopefully toolbelts are bulky one day, because it's really cringe seeing a security officer with a full set of engineering and medical tools fit into their bag.

Just because something is convenient, doesn't mean it's good for the game. Sometimes you shouldn't be able to get everything with no cost, and it would be better if people had to make choices if they wanted to powergame with their tools, instead of fitting an entire workshop and hospital in their bag.

I don't want to argue in someone else's PR, so I'll leave it at that.

[GuillaumePrata]

They are valuable because they can fit into boxes easily.

Thanks for defending my PR.

[Palpetinus]

Thanks for defending my PR.

Sooo.. you're just trying to make some tools near useless? Weird. I don't see how this positively adds to the game, or ever could.

[SkeletalElite]

So your logical conclusion to the problem that the Jaws of Life are overpowered ("psuedo all access") is to nerf every power tool so hard that the jaws of life are the only one anyone who doesn't have a toolbelt will even consider carrying?

The experimental welder and the hand drill will literally never be used unless the person has a toolbelt, they have minor benefits, but they are not worth the lost space at all.

Your entire "why its good for the game" literally only mentions the jaws of life

[wesoda25]

Being able to load boxes with essential gear (and then fill your bag with many of those) is stupid and will undoubtedly be nerfed one day.

[JohnFulpWillard]

What's the drawback (after printing etc.) of t4 stock parts?

The higher parts in a machine, the more power it needs to run, it was part of Ghilker's power rebalancing.
It seems like after we learned our lesson, recent PRs actually DO give drawbacks to lategame stuff, rather than just being 'thing but better in every single way with no downsides'.

[LemonInTheDark]

I've been kinda tempted to up normal tool sizes, this is chill tho

[GuillaumePrata]

If the material and research costs are really negligible, then we can take those out as part of this change, right?

Feel free to make that PR if you think so because again, that isn't exactly what I said but at least it has been quite funny to talk here to be fucking honest.

[Pandarsenic]

If the material and research costs are really negligible, then we can take those out as part of this change, right?

Feel free to make that PR if you think so because again, that isn't exactly what I said but at least it has been quite funny to talk here to be fucking honest.

Material cost is something that miners deal with, research is with science, lathe tax to print is too small.

If the item is being balanced around the end user not caring about those costs, then the irrelevant costs should be removed so that lacking miners, R&D focusing on other branches of research, etc., doesn't become a burden on the end user, no?

Because, sure, I've thought that maybe Jaws of Life should be larger, not for balance reasons but for fluff reasons (their IRL size and their SS13 ability to force open an airlock that can fit a mech through it). But if they're being bigger primarily because minerals and research aren't a concern, why not just make the mineral costs not be a thing, or make it titanium only so someone sufficiently determined can disassemble a pod's walls for it if there are no miners around?? Or move the doorjack function to, say, a power cell or gas tank stored in the Jaws?

(Also, re: Welder/LaserScalpsaw as weapons, I would posit that they're only so desirable because so many things have been nerfed so aggressively that anything reaching even basic combat efficacy is desirable. Few items you can obtain have the force of the laser scalpsaw, at ANY size--there's just a general lack of anything in the force bracket between the T1 Saw/Drill/Cleaver and the spear variants. The experimental welding tool isn't even significantly better as a weapon than the basic welding tool, with fuel basically never being a serious limiting factor in a fight between carbons. If there is a problem to address there, it's a lack of real weapons in the crew's hands and dangerous antag alternatives, not the size of the improved surgical tools.)

[CMDR-Gungnir]

Why can't an upgrade just be an upgrade?

[Orchian]

I don't quite agree with enlarging the majority of the T2 tools. However, I see no issue with enlarging the T2 welder. I think you should go further with the Jaws (Large perhaps?), and I feel that it'd be better to nerf the laser scalpel by making it require batteries as opposed to increasing its size

[Palpetinus]

I find it funny how you keep contradicting yourself in circles

>They are desirable for the crew because they are good weapons
>But I am not considering them as weapons, but tools
>Despite this, I will still nerf them because they are good weapons

So what is it now, are you nerfing them because they are good weapons or do you not want to consider them weapons? You can't have both. Literally, in the same comment, you say "everyone gets them for combat" and "not everything revolves around combat". You're contradicting yourself here.

[Miczu555PL]

They are valuable because they can fit into boxes easily.

Thanks for defending my PR.

I disagree that this statement defends your PR.

I mean they are more valued BECAUSE they are UPGRADE? Making them take more space literally nullfies that upgrade. And WHY would that be changed?

And yes, nearly everyone wants to powergame one jaws for themselves, because no one likes to die to atmos issues due to lack of airlock access or lack of three separate tools. (tiding aside) That's cringe.

Any more uses for the Jaws?

[GuillaumePrata]

I find it funny how you keep contradicting yourself in circles...

No, you just keep bending what I say because you want to win the internet argument but let's go over what you say as "my quotes" again:

Scarecrow Guillaume: They are desirable for the crew because they are good weapons

This is a fact and I agree.

Scarecrow Guillaume: But I am not considering them as weapons, but tools

This is wrong, I said I'm not balancing them around their weapon values as it was suggested to nerf their damage because I like when crew uses job specific weapons to fight instead of stealing the almighty baton.

Scarecrow Guillaume: Despite this, I will still nerf them because they are good weapons

Wrong again, I said it pretty cleanly, the change is good because they are a desirable item for everyone regardless of their job.

So what is it now, are you nerfing them because they are good weapons or do you not want to consider them weapons? You can't have both. Literally, in the same comment, you say "everyone gets them for combat" and "not everything revolves around combat". You're contradicting yourself here.

"Everyone gets them for combat" and "Not everything in the game revolves around combat" are both correct and I don't see why you can't understand it.
Again, I'm rebalancing them because they are an item that everyone would have on every shift if they can opt in.

When Ghilker nerfed the Insuls (another desirable item by 99% of the crew) by giving them chonky fingers... do you think that instead they should have nerfed it's item slap damage?
Oh no... they should have nerfed it's shock resistance because that is what everyone uses it for by your logic and then everyone would suffer, including the engineers that use it for their job.

[Palpetinus]

because they are a desirable item for everyone regardless of their job

"Everyone gets them for combat" and "Not everything in the game revolves around combat" are both correct and I don't see why you can't understand it.

Wrong. People who simply do not care about combat will also not care about laser scalpels and such. I'd say that on the MRP servers, the majority doesn't care much about combat and on LRP, still about half the crew doesn't. I know there's this meme that every player is just a validhunter waiting to valid someone, but that's clearly just another case of the loud minority being noticed the most.

they are an item that everyone would have on every shift if they can opt in

Hard to prove or disprove. If you look at the numbers, present them in the hallways and tell everyone "this is better than a butcher's cleaver and here's one for free" then absolutely. However, most of the crew doesn't know of its force and even less will go out of their way to, for example, go into medical and print one even if the way is bolted open. People simply do not care this much about minmaxing their damage/inventory.
There are so many more items that are relatively easy to get and everyone who cares about minmaxing will take one if offered. Health analyzers, BS body bags, magboots, ATMOS holofans, combat knives, pepper spray,..
Just "if someone could opt into getting one, they'd take it" isn't a very good argument considering there's dozens of those items.

insuls

Entirely irrelevant here. Insuls are a roundstart item that had absolutely no effort (except gotta tide) or drawbacks involved, it's not comparable. Everyone beelined for them because there wasn't a single drawback to wearing them. Experimental tools need research, the right materials (=effort) and have no discernable drawbacks because they are hard to get upgrades.

Maybe I simply cannot comprehend your arguments. I just play this game daily and I have yet to see a single shift where people are mass-outfitted with either of the tools you're nerfing. Their high material costs often make them a well-kept treasure by their respective department, so even in a blob situation, people tend to print industrial welding tools instead of experimental ones from engineering.

I do, however, 100% agree on the Jaws. Their functionality (1 small item AA) heavily outweighs the cost.

[GuillaumePrata]

Entirely irrelevant here.

Sure, let's see how the argument goes then.

Insuls are a roundstart item that had absolutely no effort (except gotta tide) or drawbacks involved

So the difference is just that one needs research, got it.

Everyone beelined for them because there wasn't a single drawback to wearing them.

Exactly like tier 2 tools, got it.

Experimental tools need research, the right materials (=effort) and have no discernable drawbacks because they are hard to get upgrades.

And this is again, something I said at the main post, the average crew member that wants a tier 2 tool doesn't do the research or the mining for it and that is why I'm adding something they actually will care about on their decision making, inventory management.

[kopoba]

Wrong again, I said it pretty cleanly, the change is good because they are a desirable item for everyone regardless of their job.

And?
Crowbar is "desirable item for everyone" are you gonna nerf it too in next pr so more spacemens die from suffocation or burns behind fire airlock?
I know this game about suffering but where is the line beyond which survival rate drops to 0?

PR is not about advanced tools is good weapon. who the heck use jaw of life as weapon? Circular saw and laser scalpel have 15 and 16 damage wich is like no difference at all.

Its not about all access pass. Since you can hack faster.
So whats the point?

When Ghilker nerfed the Insuls

This is worst change that affect only engineers that is working with computer consoles to monitor SM and powernet.

[CMDR-Gungnir]

But why can't an upgrade just be an upgrade? I can't tell you the last time I had T2 Surgery or Engineering tools outside of being in that department, being given them, or Actively Helping The Department (all of those being cases where I SHOULD have them anyway).

Palp's entirely right, you're punishing the vast majority of the playerbase for the actions of the minority.

How does this benefit the game? What exactly makes an 'upgrade' if it's got just as major of a downside as its benefit? What's the point of the mineral and research requirement if they aren't better than the roundstart stuff?

[GuillaumePrata]

But why can't an upgrade just be an upgrade?

It still is just an upgrade over the basic tools, if you have a toolbelt, so I don't know what you are going on about "you're punishing the vast majority of the playerbase" when it was made to not hurt the main department in any way and instead discourage people that have a full set of engineering + medical tools inside a cardboard box.

It's literally the second line in the PR but imagine reading.

[CMDR-Gungnir]

It's literally the second line in the PR but imagine reading.

I'll imagine reading if you imagine making a good PR.

[GuillaumePrata]

I'll imagine reading if you imagine making a good PR.

lol

[CMDR-Gungnir]

I'll imagine reading if you imagine making a good PR.

lol

Ok cool now that we've both given it a shot; fair point, but I still dislike it because I don't like this growing trend that "something's good for some reason or another, so we need to nerf it."

If it's something you only get late into the round, it should still be better than what you get at the start. That's the entire point of a tier system, otherwise T2 tools would just be A Different Tier 1 Variant, y'know?

[SkeletalElite]

Where are all these people running around with full sets of upgraded engineering and medical tools in a single box. Most people aren't even running around with a set of regular tools, much less upgraded ones. I can't help but feel this is a change trying to address a non-existent problem.

I get the feeling most of the people who support this PR, plain and simply support increasing the size of the regular tools too and this is just a proxy of that and that they couldn't care less about what the PR is actually trying to accomplish, which is this idea that that upgraded tools should primarily be for the department that specializes in using them and not any old person who stumbles across them in bar.

[Fikou]

please let toolboxes hold them

[JohnFulpWillard]

let them fit in toolboxes and I'll be happy with this

[GuillaumePrata]

let them fit in toolboxes and I'll be happy with this

I will change the size of items that they can carry to medium them as they are still worse than a generic bag when carried by hand.