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marquee
and timer
listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off"
#2144
Comments
As it is currently defined, it does not make sense. However, the idea behind this could have been: there are live regions whose automatic output by the screen reader would generally be disruptive and unnecessary (as would indeed be the case with marquee and timer), but which could be activated permanently or temporarily by a specific screen reader command. I.e. if I want to know how much time I have left until logout, I press INS+[key for live regions] and hear the last updated value in live regions with aria-live=off once. If I press INS+CTRL+[Key for live regions], I activate the output of aria-live=off permanently. |
Another reason for the role could be that although I do not get the changes automatically, when I reach the element with the screen reader, I hear the element role and thus know that something changes here from time to time - a reference to areas with dynamic changes and the type of change |
again, while I appreciate your thoughts on this @JAWS-test ... the idea of me filing the issue here is not to speculate ("what may the spec writers have meant by this?"), but to ask them directly... |
@patrickhlauke My answer is not intended to question your ticket (which I support: "As it is currently defined, it does not make sense"), but to consider how the ticket can be resolved. The roles can be deprecated or better specified or a difference between a new aria-live=silent and aria-live=off can be introduced |
Discussed today during new issue triage: #2144 |
@spectranaut was that meant to link to the actual discussion? currently just points back to itself here, and not sure how w3c/core-aam#224 that also references this issue here relates to it /cc @scottaohara |
i think that was just a mistake copy/paste. short summary is that there is some work to clarify expectations here. here are the minutes, but it was just discussed at a high level in the largely issue triage meeting we had today - https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-aria-minutes.html |
The value "off" is really nonsensical. Maybe we could introduce the value "silent" and use it as the default for theese roles. So we had in the characteristics table of "aria-live" instead for "off" the description for "silent" stated identically as now for "off":
Additionally, screen readers could offer an option to mute / unmute silent live regions, so the user had not to search for them in the page. |
if the idea indeed is that "absence of if the idea is that |
#1104 has some relevant discussion related to this issue |
Agreed that
|
again, at the risk of bikeshedding too much here... also, judging by this discussion here, am I now to understand that my assumption here is indeed correct?
and if so, this definitely needs to be clearly documented - like a big important boxout/note that says and then separately come up with a better name, and further clarification for, whatever |
Discussed on today's call https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-minutes.html#t06 |
From the minutes
and this, as well, is likely part of the confusion for developers. saying some value is the default seems to indicate "so even if you leave out the attribute, that's the assumed default" ... but i assume the "default" here is more "if you just add |
ARIA spec for
…but that means we're missing an |
Simplified test case here. https://bug-271841-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=470641 |
@patrickhlauke wrote:
yeah, discussion was that "off" is too confusing for authors given the original intention... spec needs to add 1. an |
Discussed briefly in yesterday's meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes#t08 |
dropping this here just for reference, but ... a recent article making the rounds that also misunderstands what
also, just spotted the MDN pages for live regions, that include the same misunderstanding https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/ARIA_Live_Regions#live_regions
So it seems this misunderstanding is quite pervasive (unsurprisingly) |
See w3c/aria#2144 for a clarification on `aria-live="off"` - that it doesn't mean "don't announce changes", but rather "announce them only when focus is on the element"
See w3c/aria#2144 for a clarification on `aria-live="off"` - that it doesn't mean "don't announce changes", but rather "announce them only when focus is on the element"
In https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/#live_region_roles
marquee
andtimer
are listed as live region roles. However, when then following through to their definitions, it states:https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/#marquee
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/#timer
As
aria-live="off"
is the default for all elements, isn't this contradictory? I'd have expected that roles listed as being live regions would have an implicit value of eitherpolite
orassertive
.Unless there's some extra "magic" here that is not explained - "they're
off
but still behave differently in some unspecified way compared to other elements"? But then that aspect should be clarified explicitly... looking at https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/#aria-live there's a lot of prose explainingassertive
andpolite
, but foroff
you only get the short definition in the tableBut again, if this is the default, I would not expect a difference in an element that either has no
aria-live
attribute at all, and one that hasaria-live="off"
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