term/definition should use aria-details instead of aria-labelledby #1147

aleventhal · 2020-01-07T16:31:53Z

Relates to issue #749

A definition should not change the accessible name of a term, and thus aria-labelledby is inappropriate. Rather, a definition is an annotation and should use aria-details.

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scottaohara · 2020-01-07T16:43:19Z

with this change should we also update definition to be prohibited from having aria-label / labelledby?.

aleventhal · 2020-01-07T16:54:39Z

with this change should we also update definition to be prohibited from having aria-label / labelledby?.

Yes, @jnurthen , do you think I should do that in this PR?

jnurthen · 2020-01-07T18:29:34Z

Yes, @jnurthen , do you think I should do that in this PR?

Sounds good to me.

aleventhal · 2020-01-07T18:37:38Z

with this change should we also update definition to be prohibited from having aria-label / labelledby?.

Done, good catch.

index.html

scottaohara

think we just need some capitalized SHOULDs here. otherwise i like these changes

index.html

aleventhal · 2020-01-10T16:42:25Z

@scottaohara Thanks for catching that. How's it look now?

scottaohara

just made a quick commit to remove an extra end paragraph tag, but now it looks good to me!

index.html

Co-Authored-By: Carolyn MacLeod <Carolyn_MacLeod@ca.ibm.com>

carmacleod

Should aria-label[ledby] should be prohibited on definition as well? It would sort-of defeat the purpose of using aria-details instead of aria-describedby if an author is able to flatten the definition with an aria-label?

aleventhal · 2020-01-10T21:54:11Z

@carmacleod, that makes sense to me. Let's bring it up at next week's meeting? How about we get this in for now and think about what to do about that?

carmacleod · 2020-01-10T22:13:47Z

How about we get this in for now and think about what to do about that?

Yep - agreed.

carmacleod

Looks good - thanks!
+1

scottaohara · 2020-01-10T22:49:57Z

oh, @aleventhal I actually thought you had updated definition prohibit aria-label and aria-labelledby per our previous comments. completely glazed over that, and see it's just term here.

i think we should prohibit the naming of definition here, it was one of the last things we talked about on the call this week.

index.html

…term, require that a term with a matching definition MUST use aria-details to point to it

aleventhal

oh, @aleventhal I actually thought you had updated definition prohibit aria-label and aria-labelledby per our previous comments. completely glazed over that, and see it's just term here.

i think we should prohibit the naming of definition here, it was one of the last things we talked about on the call this week.

Ok, I misunderstood. I've made that change. LMK what you think.

… that should provide a good screen reader experience in that case.

scottaohara · 2020-01-11T01:25:01Z

index.html

-				<p>A word or phrase with a corresponding definition. See related <rref>definition</rref>.</p>
-				<p>The <code>term</code> role is used to explicitly identify a word or phrase for which a <rref>definition</rref> has been provided by the author or is expected to be provided by the user.</p>
+				<p>A word or phrase with an optional corresponding definition. See related <rref>definition</rref>.</p>
+				<p>The <code>term</code> role is used to explicitly identify a word or phrase for which a <rref>definition</rref> has been provided by the author or is expected to be provided by the user. Where a matching <rref>definition</rref> exists, authors MUST set <pref>aria-details</pref> on the <code>term</code>, pointing to the <rref>definition</rref>. Otherwise, <pref>aria-details</pref> MUST point to a form or control that take user input that provides the definition.</p>


regarding:

MUST point to a form or control that take user input that provides the definition

that "takes" user input

could this not also point to a link that takes users to the definition?

i like this idea though.

It could take the user to a link with the definition, but I'm not sure we really have to say that.

index.html

…details

index.html

carmacleod · 2020-01-13T14:47:28Z

@aleventhal

Where a matching definition exists, authors MUST set aria-details on the term, pointing to the definition. Otherwise, aria-details MUST point to a form or control that takes user input to provide the definition.

If aria-details is required on a term, then it should be listed under "Required States and Properties:" in the characteristics table.

I guess that would mean that a term cannot be "standalone", i.e. we couldn't have a teacher say, "Here's the list of terms for tomorrow's test.", if the definitions are expected to be written on paper. :)
(contrived example... thanks for your patience as I slowly think this through... ;)

aleventhal · 2020-01-13T15:22:17Z

True, maybe we should leave that as a possibility. What do others think?

aleventhal · 2020-01-13T16:19:35Z

Thinking about this more. What's the user benefit from having term marked up, when there is no definition? Screen readers don't have any special navigation keystrokes, and the fact that it's a term is going to be obvious from context. I would have thought that the benefits of using term come when you can tie the definition to it.

scottaohara · 2020-01-13T16:52:56Z

a role parity argument could be made. since dfn should be exposed as a term, there'd be no requirement that they be associated with a definition.

that said, i don't think it's a bad idea to strongly suggest that authors do create these associations...but it's not going to be possible to force a consistent pairing of terms and definitions for anyone using the dfn element

aleventhal · 2020-01-13T17:06:53Z

So, we change it to SHOULD or MAY?

carmacleod · 2020-01-13T17:53:10Z

SHOULD?

carmacleod · 2020-01-13T18:48:19Z

Actually, I think I like that. Only a couple of nits:

add the missing <rref>'s and <pref>'s
change "is visible" back to "exists"
use "form control" instead of "form"
consider changing "an optional corresponding definition" back to "a corresponding definition"
(i.e. it seems wrong now to say "optional", since aria-details is required. i.e. there SHOULD always be either an element with role="definition", or a "virtual, user-entered definition" element)

Question: Should we also add a note to definition so that authors don't wipe out the semantics of the form control (if any)?

Authors SHOULD NOT use the definition role on interactive elements such as form controls because doing so could prevent users of assistive technologies from interacting with those elements.

aleventhal · 2020-01-13T19:12:23Z

Actually, I think I like that. Only a couple of nits:

add the missing <rref>'s and <pref>'s

Done, except for the one where the user might enter a definition, since the definition doesn't actually exist yet.

change "is visible" back to "exists"

Basically did that, but it was word to have , exists, by itself, so I rearranged the sentence.

use "form control" instead of "form"

See if you like what I did for that.

consider changing "an optional corresponding definition" back to "a corresponding definition"

I think we've decided it's optional for role parity.

(i.e. it seems wrong now to say "optional", since aria-details is required. i.e. there SHOULD always be either an element with role="definition", or a "virtual, user-entered definition" element)

I don't think we are requiring aria-details, just saying you should use it if the optional thing is there, or a form at least.

Question: Should we also add a note to definition so that authors don't wipe out the semantics of the form control (if any)?

Done.

carmacleod · 2020-01-13T19:19:57Z

Ok, looks good to me now!
I already officially "approved"... before @jnurthen made us run around the track a couple more times. 😄

term/defnition should use aria-details instead of aria-labelledby

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aleventhal mentioned this pull request Jan 7, 2020

Update aria-details #1136

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joanmarie added the Agenda label Jan 7, 2020

Name is prohibited on a term

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jnurthen requested review from scottaohara and jnurthen January 9, 2020 18:50

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Improved readability, remove problematic descendant approach

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Use capitlized SHOULDs

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remove extra end paragraph tag

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Update index.html

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Co-Authored-By: Carolyn MacLeod <Carolyn_MacLeod@ca.ibm.com>

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Prohibit name on a definition, require that a definition MUST have a …

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…term, require that a term with a matching definition MUST use aria-details to point to it

aleventhal commented Jan 10, 2020

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aleventhal and others added 2 commits January 10, 2020 20:17

Suggested change to alleviate confusion where there is no definition,…

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… that should provide a good screen reader experience in that case.

fix typo

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Fix typos and sentence grammar

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Merge branch 'term_def_details' of github.com:w3c/aria into term_def_…

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Clean up wording, add semantic sugar

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jnurthen removed the Agenda label Jan 14, 2020

This was referenced Jan 16, 2020

term and definition will no longer allow author naming w3c/aria-practices#1299

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Consider prohibiting accessible name for listitem, rowgroup, term, time #1117

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jnurthen approved these changes Jan 16, 2020

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fix spacing

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jnurthen merged commit e496a4d into master Dec 16, 2020

pkra added this to the ARIA 1.3 milestone Jan 10, 2022

pkra mentioned this pull request Jan 10, 2022

FPWD of ARIA 1.3 #1331

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term/definition should use aria-details instead of aria-labelledby #1147

term/definition should use aria-details instead of aria-labelledby #1147

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term/definition should use aria-details instead of aria-labelledby #1147

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