Revisions for the copy relating to the term “西文” per issue #483 #492

realfish · 2022-10-17T04:12:18Z

A minor revision per editors’ meeting on 28 Mar 2023.

Updates per editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023:

Change “European text” into “Western text”.
Change “European alphas” into “Western alphas”.
Change “European […]” into “Western […]” in some contexts.
Some revisions for the past commits under this PR.

Updates per editors’ meeting on 29 Nov 2022:

Translate “西文字母” into “European alpha(s)”.
Use “alphanumeric(s)” to shorten some wording.

Unify the Chinese term usage of 西文 and 西文字母.
Translate 西文 into “European text”.
Translate 西文字母 into “European alphabet”.
Translate 阿拉伯数字 into “European numeral(s)”.
Some minor fixes for typos, punctuations, and translations.
Remove some unnecessary divergences between TC & SC.

The lines with checkme marks are need to be confirmed.

Preview | Diff

To fix issue w3c#483. * Unify the Chinese term usage of 西文 and 西文字母. * Translate 西文 into “European text”. * Translate 西文字母 into “European alphabet”. * Translate 阿拉伯数字 into “European numeral(s)”. * Some minor fixes for typos, punctuations, and translations. * Remove some unnecessary divergencies between TC & SC. The lines with `checkme` marks are need to be confirmed.

xfq · 2022-10-26T13:30:39Z

和Richard讨论后，他有几点建议，供大家参考：

European text可改为European alphanumeric(s)
European alphabet可改为alphabetic scripts
European numeral(s)可改为ASCII digits（阿拉伯数字是印度人发明，由阿拉伯传入欧洲的，不管名字用哪个地方都有问题）

realfish · 2022-10-26T14:55:08Z

我先提出几点供讨论：

European text可改为European alphanumeric(s)

——Alphanumeric(s) 在语感上似乎侧重强调「同时包含字母和数字」的内容（比如十六进制数字、车牌号码）。

European alphabet可改为alphabetic scripts

——Script(s) 中文一般译作「文字」「文种」，它所指的对象覆盖了字母、数字、符号等各种字符。在「European alphabet」的上下文中，该术语是明确跟「数字」这个概念并列的。

European numeral(s)可改为ASCII digits（阿拉伯数字是印度人发明，由阿拉伯传入欧洲的，不管名字用哪个地方都有问题）

——ASCII digits 这个术语在字面上非常强调某一编码字符集（也即 ASCII 字符集）。

xfq · 2022-10-27T02:11:16Z

European text可改为European alphanumeric(s)

——Alphanumeric(s) 在语感上似乎侧重强调「同时包含字母和数字」的内容（比如十六进制数字、车牌号码）。

虽然可能有这种感觉，但只包含字母或只包含数字的一段文字也可以算alphanumeric(s)。另见Infra的定义。

European alphabet可改为alphabetic scripts

——Script(s) 中文一般译作「文字」「文种」，它所指的对象覆盖了字母、数字、符号等各种字符。在「European alphabet」的上下文中，该术语是明确跟「数字」这个概念并列的。

Richard的另一个建议是使用European alpha，因为alphabet指的是「字母表」，用在文档中不太自然。Infra也有类似的定义。

European numeral(s)可改为ASCII digits（阿拉伯数字是印度人发明，由阿拉伯传入欧洲的，不管名字用哪个地方都有问题）

——ASCII digits 这个术语在字面上非常强调某一编码字符集（也即 ASCII 字符集）。

这一点他也很清楚，不过他目前也没找到更好的词了。如果我们觉得把阿拉伯数字和「欧洲」挂钩没关系的话，用European numeral(s)也是可以的，毕竟Unicode也在用这个词。

realfish · 2022-10-27T05:02:25Z

结合 Infra 的定义，「a European alpha」应该相当于「a letter of/in European alphabet(s)」。从这个角度来说，European alpha 确实利于优化英语措辞，我也觉得是更好的术语方案。

我也看到 Unicode 在优先使用 European digit(s) 这个术语。

对于 ASCII，我最大的顾虑是它容易像「半角/全角」这组术语一样，把字符造型、字符编码和历史遗留的「代称/借代」混淆在一起。CLReq 在提到阿拉伯数字时，并不预设数字是比例宽度的、全宽的甚至其他形态的，也即，数字实际上有可能超出 U+0030–U+0039 这个范围。

——基于这些考虑，个人更倾向于 European numeral(s) 或 European digit(s)。

Alphanumeric(s) 可以再看看其他几位编辑的意见。

关于 alphanumeric(s) 个人有个额外提议：可以考虑将大多数「西文字母和数字」这个中文短语，整体翻译成「alphanumeric(s)」。因为文档中涉及「西文字母和数字」的排版规则，除少数个例外，通常不必严格区分「西文字母」「阿拉伯数字」——它们的排版规则基本是一致的。

基于上述，alphanumeric(s) 作为术语，或许是「letter(s) of European alphabets and numerals」的合理简化。

* Translate “西文字母” into “European alpha(s)”. * Use “alphanumeric(s)” to shorten some wording.

index.html

Change “an” into “a” since “European” begins with a consonant.

xfq · 2022-12-14T05:20:16Z

Since you added a lot of checkme to the English translation, I'd like to get @huijing and/or @r12a's review before merging.

r12a · 2022-12-14T11:59:26Z

index.html

@@ -1407,7 +1407,7 @@ <h5>
            <p its-locale-filter-list="zh-hant" lang="zh-hant">句號<span class="uname" translate="no">U+3002 IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP </span>[。]表示語句結束，逗號<span class="uname" translate="no">U+FF0C FULLWIDTH COMMA </span>[，]表示語氣停頓，頓號<span class="uname" translate="no">U+3001 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA</span> [、]使用於並列連用、表示次序的字詞之間。</p>

            <div class="note" id="n021">
-              <p its-locale-filter-list="en" lang="en">In many college textbooks, science and technology literature, and grammar books of Western languages for example, most of which are in horizontal writing mode, where Western language are heavily used. In these cases, <span class="uname" translate="no">U+FF0E FULLWIDTH FULL STOP</span> [．] can be used as periods, while <span class="uname" translate="no">U+002C COMMA</span> [,] or <span class="uname" translate="no">U+FF0C FULLWIDTH COMMA</span> [，] can be used as commas or secondary commas.</p>
+              <p its-locale-filter-list="en" lang="en" class="checkme">In many college textbooks, science and technology literature, and grammar books in European text for example, most of which are in horizontal writing mode, where European text are heavily used. In these cases, <span class="uname" translate="no">U+FF0E FULLWIDTH FULL STOP</span> [．] can be used as periods, while <span class="uname" translate="no">U+002C COMMA</span> [,] or <span class="uname" translate="no">U+FF0C FULLWIDTH COMMA</span> [，] can be used as commas or secondary commas.</p>


Just wondering whether 'non-Chinese' might be better than 'European', since that would also capture Uighur, Tibetan, and other languages.

The “European” here is aimed to translate the Chinese “西(文)”, of which the Japanese counterpart is “欧(文)”. The adoptions of 欧文 can also be found in Taiwan’s typographical publications.

The “欧” above is literally the “European”.

Traditionally, “西(文)” would be translated into “Western”. Yet, the final agreement from CLReq editors’ meeting was to replace the “Western” with the “European”, in order to get away from some potential controversies about the border between the East and the West (or something geopolitical).

Personally, the script set which the term “non-Chinese” refers appears to be much larger than that the “Western” or “European” refers. Considering the Chinese term “西文” usually refers to the scripts like Latin (and Latin extended), Cyrillic, Greek, etc., I also prefer “European” more than “non-Chinese”.

Thanks for the explanation of the background - of which i was aware. But i suggest 'non-Chinese' in the interest of accuracy, rather than 'political' considerations. It seems like the behaviour of the features under discussion may not be limited to supporting languages of Europe(?)

Thank you, Richard. Will discuss this issue with other editors.

I discussed this with @r12a offline. He suggested that we use "Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic" directly, or use a phrase like "simple alphabetic text" (with a definition in the document).

At yesterday's meeting, we decided to change "European" back to "Western".

index.html

r12a · 2022-12-14T12:09:21Z

Sorry for suggesting alternative wordings so late in the day, but it's the first time i had a chance to look at the usage in context. I hope it's more of a help than a hindrance.

index.html

Per CLReq editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023.

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Per CLReq editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023.

xfq · 2023-03-02T06:22:19Z

@realfish Would you please resolve the conflicts? Thank you!

realfish · 2023-03-02T07:53:08Z

@xfq Got conflicts resolved. Thank you for the reminder.

There might be a line that needs to be reviewed, where I tried to reduce ambiguity with a minor revision.

https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/492/files#diff-0eb547304658805aad788d320f10bf1f292797b5e6d745a3bf617584da017051R1211

xfq · 2023-03-17T07:52:43Z

There might be a line that needs to be reviewed, where I tried to reduce ambiguity with a minor revision.

https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/492/files#diff-0eb547304658805aad788d320f10bf1f292797b5e6d745a3bf617584da017051R1211

I discussed this with @r12a offline. Here's the current text:

One by one, with the same normal orientation as Han characters. This is usually applied to one-letter alphanumerics, as well as acronyms.

And here's his suggestion:

One by one, with the same upright orientation as Han characters. This usually applies to single-letter alphanumerics and acronyms.

realfish · 2023-03-17T08:09:59Z

Thank you, @xfq and @r12a.

My concern is whether “single-letter alphanumerics and/or acronyms” will be misunderstood as “single-letter alphanumerics” and/or “single-letter acronyms”.

The copy here is supposed to mean “single-letter alphanumerics” and “acronyms/initialisms with any number of letters”.

r12a · 2023-03-17T10:33:01Z

I think we decided that because there are no single letter acronyms, it resolves itself.

realfish · 2023-03-17T12:29:10Z

I think we decided that because there are no single letter acronyms, it resolves itself.

There is a related use case for foreign (Western) names. A first name or middle name may be abbreviated into a single letter. See also https://w3c.github.io/clreq/#id86.

The term “acronym(s)” here actually may be not precise and complete enough. I consider that “首字母缩写” in Chinese refers to acronyms, initialisms, and some forms of abbreviations.

xfq · 2023-03-28T12:57:22Z

@realfish Would you please remove the checkme too?

xfq · 2023-03-29T07:48:50Z

@realfish Would you please resolve the conflicts? Thank you!

index.html

* Fix capitalization for a “Text” word in English title. * Fix an inconsistency between TC & SC.

index.html

Co-authored-by: Fuqiao Xue <xfq@w3.org>

xfq

Thank you!

xfq · 2023-04-25T13:11:39Z

Merging per today's meeting. Thank you, @realfish!

This was referenced Oct 17, 2022

英语中「西文/western」相关的表述是否需要进一步处理？ #493

Open

英语文本中的部分标点需要校订 #495

Open

Revisions per editors’ meeting on 29 Nov 2022

0f276c8

* Translate “西文字母” into “European alpha(s)”. * Use “alphanumeric(s)” to shorten some wording.

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realfish and others added 2 commits December 12, 2022 16:17

Grammatical fix

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Change “an” into “a” since “European” begins with a consonant.

Merge branch 'gh-pages' into issue-483

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Use “alphanumeric” to shorten some wording

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realfish added 2 commits December 17, 2022 04:14

Resolve conflicts between HEAD & w3c#504

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Change “European text” into “Western text”

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Per CLReq editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023.

realfish added 6 commits February 21, 2023 20:50

Change “European alphas” into “Western alphas”.

e493b7d

Per CLReq editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023.

Revert some checkme marks for English lines

dbb072e

Minor revisions for past commits under this PR

56c77b2

Change “European” into “Western”

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Per CLReq editors’ meeting on 21 Feb 2023.

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Minor revisions for past commits under this PR

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Merge the latest version & resolve confilcts

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Minor revision per edtiors’ meeting on 28 Mar 2023

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Remove a checkme

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Resolve conflicts between ecd3269 & this PR

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* Fix capitalization for a “Text” word in English title. * Fix an inconsistency between TC & SC.

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Fix capitalization to meet title case

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Co-authored-by: Fuqiao Xue <xfq@w3.org>

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Merge branch 'gh-pages' into issue-483

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Revisions for the copy relating to the term “西文” per issue #483 #492

Revisions for the copy relating to the term “西文” per issue #483 #492

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Revisions for the copy relating to the term “西文” per issue #483 #492

Revisions for the copy relating to the term “西文” per issue #483 #492

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