Request to FreeTube developers: please work with UI experts

[pkrasicki]

FreeTube is an amazing app, but its UI is very outdated in some places compared to similar applications. I've seen developers implement extra buttons or settings as a workaround for those issues. This helps, but only partially and often at the cost of making the UI more complicated. There is only one proper solution: better design. Some parts of the UI have to be redesigned bit by bit. It can be done gradually, so that users have time to adjust to changes.

Developers, please work with UI experts to improve the UI. Take their opinions into account when developing new features. Please don't repeat the mistakes of many other Free Software projects. I know that there is a lot of other important work to do, but UI is also very important. Currently it feels like there is little focus in this area and that the design hasn't changed much in the last few years.

[kommunarr]

Hi @pkrasicki, I'm a UX-inclined developer who has been working on FT in the bouts I'm not on hiatus. I certainly have a lot to learn, but I'm trying alongside others to make improvements to the user experience wherever possible (#4929, #4921, WIP grid view for User Playlists). We're volunteers working to do what we can whenever we have the available time, and we welcome all the support we can get. If you or anyone with UI/UX knowledge has any evidence-backed suggestions and development efforts to help make the project better, we strongly welcome that. Just remember that this is not a private or for-profit project, where where we can "bring someone in" without their willing & unpaid support; people chip in where they can to make something better.

[kommunarr]

I strongly agree with your point about the defaults, and this is the major FLOSS UX trap in a nutshell. See my discussion here. I think we might need to even crack down or at least sequester some of our existing functionality to de-clutter the UI. It's not just about having someone involved who's knowledgeable; it's also ensuring that we have a set of clear design principles that are enforced even when there isn't one set person keeping track of them.

Sorry but i dont see any arguing [...]

TO @pkrasicki's credit, I think the process felt more drawn out because of how long it took us to review the PR (we were all knee deep in the User Playlist work, which left this PR on the backburner for all of December).

I still would contend that our User Playlist push period was not representative of our processes as a whole (flawed as they are), and I apologize that that caused you to be pushed away. Again, for that specific PR about the side-spacing, that one is very easy for it to fall into subjective territory, where determination of what the "better default" is seemingly arbitrary without more incontrovertible evidence being provided of "how" it is better. We have a lot more glaring issues with FreeTube's UI today, specifically with regards to ease of comprehension and ease of use. We'll need all the support we can get in that process, and to my part, I'll make sure that we can discuss the desired solution more fully in the issue before getting into lots of minor quibbles once the PR is released, which can lead to great frustration for the original PR author. I hope you feel more inclined to contribute to FT to help bring about these improvements that we're reaching towards, as again, we're all just volunteers. Thank you for providing your input & grievances relating to this matter, as it is a very real set of problems that we are actively working on addressing.

[pkrasicki]

I appreciate the apology. I didn't know that you were busy with playlists.

Again, for that specific PR about the side-spacing, that one is very easy for it to fall into subjective territory, where determination of what the "better default" is seemingly arbitrary without more incontrovertible evidence being provided of "how" it is better.

But what kind of evidence could there be? Other than the fact that other modern apps don't do that? The card's background color is an unnecessary decoration (or distraction). Once you remove it, it becomes clear that the padding is not needed. If you have doubts, then my advice is that you should consult another expert.

I don't know how other projects like GNOME (for example) make UI decisions or handle such disagreements, but it might be useful to get in touch with somebody and find out.

FreeTube 0.20.0 without card background:

Now with other backgrounds removed too, same padding:

[kommunarr]

But what kind of evidence could there be? Other than the fact that other modern apps don't do that?

People with professional UI/UX design knowledge know how to answer this type of question based off of design principles, UX research, and thorough knowledge of the rationales undergirding the choosing of a given design among the different possibilities available. You can get inspiration for better UX patterns by looking at what products with "good UX" do, but that alone does not provide enough evidence that a design using that UX pattern must be implemented. I can understand if you are not equipped to provide proper justification if you lack the necessary knowledge & experience to do so, but that does not put the impetus on others to take them as a given or validate those claims for you. All that to say, if we did take your PR's suggestion at face value & merge it right in, that modus operandi would be counter to the one you're suggesting in this thread. I apologize if this comes off as negative, but my overall point is that your example that you're using is not serving the overall points you're making, many of which I do agree with. We will put in concentrated effort to improve the user experience for FreeTube going forward, and I hope that work will become very apparent in our upcoming releases.

[pkrasicki]

I've never seen anyone work like that, buy maybe it's a good idea to have high standards. Thanks for making UX one of your future priorities.

[kommunarr]

Again, thank you for providing your input on this matter. I'll close out this discussion for the time being, but we will keep these concerns in the forefront.