-
Notifications
You must be signed in to change notification settings - Fork 1
New issue
Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.
By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.
Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account
[Proposal] Hazard schema - Hazard occurrence probability / frequency #59
Comments
@stufraser1 please review examples (especially EQ) |
If I'm understanding the proposal correctly then someone could choose to give all probabilistic values e.g.
But
but this doesn't specify what value is to be given as the summary value for each event. In the examples in Example 1 you've used The examples 1 and 2 have given Example 1 (a)
Putting it into json makes this a little clearer: {
"hazard": {
"event_set": {
"occurrence_range": {
20, 100, 250
}
},
"event": {
[
"occurrence": {
"return_period": "1/20"
}
]
}
}
} Example 2 You've already stated in the description that the
Is there a reason you've used %'s for the As all 3 potential scenarios are still being called part of
The main changes I'm suggesting are:
I'm also unclear as to what the values for @duncandewhurst thoughts? |
I'm new to this discussion but wanted to give the cat modelling perspective on terminology with respect to stochastic event frequency. We would call the reciprocal of the return period not an occurrence probability but an 'event rate' or 'annual arrival rate'. This is the average number of occurrences of the event within a given year, not a probability of occurrence. In order to work out the probability of 0,1,2.. occurrences within a given year, we would refer to a frequency distribution, such as poisson. From the assumed distribution and parameter (the event rate can be the lambda used to parameterise the Poisson, for example), we could calculate the probability of no occurrences, 1 occurrence, 2 occurrences of that event within a year etc. Something else that is important in event frequency distributions is seasonality and clustering of multiple events in time, which the return period / event rate info does not capture. One of my suggestions for capturing this in the upcoming ODS/RDL alignment project I am working on with Stu and co, will be an extra resource file which is a list of event occurrences across a span of years. This captures the seasonality and clustering aspect of event frequency within each year. Also, stochastic event catalogues in cat models are too large to be listed in meta-data. |
I'll defer to the RDL team on the questions of terminology :-) Some feedback on the proposed data modelling:
|
Thanks all for the feedback.
Deterministic optionAn example for "deterministic" layer could be:
Multiple occurrence metrics, return periodThe reason we give multiple way to express the same concept of occurrence is trying to cover perspectives from different hazard practices:
An idea that I thrown in the example was to translate any of the different frequency formats inserted by the user into a common annual rate (
Event sets and eventsYes, the 1:n relationship should be mantained: {
"hazard": {
"event_set": {
"events": [
{
// event A
},
{
// event B
}
]
}
}
} |
We won't be listing the whole event set; this would be in a data file. The metadata in the |
This may well be what was then named exceedance rate in the earlier versions. Agree it should be included. The exceedance probabilitydescription should be clear it is reporting probability of one occurrence in a given year. |
To address:
Proposed changes:
|
Thanks for summarising this @stufraser1, just one suggested change to address
and the answer
And just an addition to each of the 3 object type descriptions to make it clearer in which situation each is expected to be used. (and I added titles more for our benefit when we get to actually making this change to the schema)
|
Suggest to change title 'Deterministic frequency' as this isn't a frequency, to 'Deterministic approach' or 'Deterministc measure'? Additionally, a deterministic event can be assigned a return period. In that case we would use event_set.analysis_type = "deterministic" and event.occurrence.probabilistic.return_period (event.occurrence.deterministic.return_period?) So we would have @matamadio to check |
No it's fine to leave this as a field, unless you do want to put in the other potential fields mentioned. Happy to leave this until @matamadio has had a chance to review |
Politely disagreeing on both points: a deterministic layer describes the likelyhood of event (e.g. landslide susceptibility: likely to occur, unlikely to occur...), in that sense it has a frequency attribute. However, the frequency is assessed qualitatively (index, ranking, etc) and not tied to a specific occurrence probability, rather using the mean or median. If the layer describes an index value linked to specific return period, then Also not clear to me what would be the difference between these two attributes:
|
@matamadio your points are well taken. We need to be very clear in explaining the use of 'frequency' for these attributes because I think many data users/producers will more readily associate frequency with quantitative measure / probabilistic analysis rather than the qualitative way described above. |
I did not explain well and I think actually we only need |
Can I check where we are with this and fill in the blanks below. Does this represent what has been agreed so far?
|
IMHO, an event framed as "1:100", even when used as single "mean representative" scenario, is still a slice of a probabilistic dataset; hence The deterministic layers I'm thinking about are usually produced combining variables in an index, and do not relate to any RP, e.g.: Landslide susceptibility: DEM (slope) + geology (soil type) + land cover (soil cover type) = index value |
@stufraser1 @matamadio is there a consensus yet for what to do with 'deterministic'? |
@matamadio to propose type and short description for event.occurrence.deterministic.index_values consistent in style with descriptions elsewhere in above table please. |
If ee want to assign a return period to an empirical event would you propose using event.occurrence.probabilistic.return_period too? I guess we could use it as long as guidance is clear that it can be used for these purposes as well as for defining e.g. the return period of hazard map. It makes sense, but the nature of the object changes, and should remove the restriction "This object must only be used if event_set.analysis_type = "probabilistic"" Proposed description for event.probabilistic is then: |
I rather propose to use an additional 'event.occurrence.empirical.return_period' here, with the description: "Probabilistic frequency estimate associated with the empirical events in terms of hazard intensity".
Proposing two new fields for 'event.occurrence.deterministic':
Summary table (bottom part, top unchanged)
|
What is the context or reason for the change?
From the original hazard schema report (pg 15-17):
This framing of hazard occurrence (probability or frequency) tries to be as general as possible, but ends up being not very practical nor intuitive, as expressing the most common occurrence probability (Return Period) would require to enter time duration fields on exact dates (which does not strictly apply for probabilistic distributions).
The documentation is not entirely clear on this - the description indicates using all three fields to relate to the '1 versus 50y issue', but the examples in the report show the fields being used to record the timing of the event, with no relation to probability.
If these refer to the duration of the event, then occurrence_time_span may be used to refer to the duration of event (in days, hours, etc) OR to the time period used for the frequency (1 year for annual frequency or 50yr for % in 50years, as described on the call). If this is meant to hold both cases, it is very confusing.
Changes have been proposed in the following version:
However, this version wasn't convincing as well:
What is your proposed change?
if
event_set.analysis_type =probabilistic
if
event_set.analysis_type =empirical
if
event_set.analysis_type =deterministic
Can you provide an example?
Example 1: Probabilistic flood hazard dataset (event_set) including 3 scenarios (event): RP 20, RP 100, RP 250 years.
Example 2: Probabilistic earthquake hazard dataset (event_set) including 3 scenarios (event):
Example 3: Empirical earthquake hazard dataset (event_set) including 1 event: L'Aquila earthquake
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: