New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

Wikipedia article #289

Closed
Maximus5 opened this Issue Aug 22, 2015 · 25 comments

Comments

Projects
None yet
@Maximus5
Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 22, 2015

Article in wikipedia was proposed for deletion.

If you may share new facts or evidences (not shared yet), you are welcome.

From wikipedia notes:

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Wikipedia policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Wikipedia are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

@oldmud0

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@oldmud0

oldmud0 Aug 22, 2015

If it's a notability issue, there is nothing we can do about it. Unless you can get one of the big tech news to make an article on it.

oldmud0 commented Aug 22, 2015

If it's a notability issue, there is nothing we can do about it. Unless you can get one of the big tech news to make an article on it.

@tobiashochguertel

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tobiashochguertel

tobiashochguertel commented Aug 22, 2015

What can we do @Maximus5 ?

@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Aug 22, 2015

Owner

I'm not sure what we can. Big tech news for notable sources? Also, there was a request for article improvements.

Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 22, 2015

I'm not sure what we can. Big tech news for notable sources? Also, there was a request for article improvements.

@The-MAZZTer

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@The-MAZZTer

The-MAZZTer Aug 22, 2015

Well there is a link to the standards the article does not meet; so analyze them and figure out where text on ConEmu would fit where it WOULD be considered notable.

The-MAZZTer commented Aug 22, 2015

Well there is a link to the standards the article does not meet; so analyze them and figure out where text on ConEmu would fit where it WOULD be considered notable.

@leycec

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@leycec

leycec Aug 22, 2015

Let's do this.

An Ideological Divide

In the early 2000's, an ideological spectrum referred to by the two antipoles "deletionism" and "inclusionism" erupted on Wikipedia. Ironically, this bitter feud received sufficient media attention to be included in Wikipedia:

"Deletionists" are proponents of selective coverage and removal of articles seen as unnecessary or highly substandard... Deletionists favor objectivity and conformity, holding that "Wikipedia is not Google," a "junkyard," or "a dumping ground for facts." They argue that the interest of enough people is a necessary condition for article quality, and articles about trivial subjects damage the credibility and future success of Wikipedia. They advocate the establishment and enforcement of specific standards and policies as a form of jurisprudence.

"Inclusionists" are proponents of broad retention, including retention of "harmless" articles and articles otherwise deemed substandard to allow for future improvement... Inclusionists may argue that the interest of a few is a sufficient condition for the existence of an article, since such articles are harmless and there is no restriction on space in Wikipedia. Favoring the idiosyncratic and subjective, an inclusionist slogan is "Wikipedia is not paper."

Observe the use of such words as "conformity," "enforcement," and "jurisprudence" in describing deletionists. But what sort of human might be attracted to words like that?

The Deletionists Have Won

Yes, that sort.

To paint with an admittedly wide brush, deletionists are both fundamentalist and conservative (in every categorical sense of those adjectives); inclusionists are not. Since spoken language is inherently subjective, however, there exists no unbiased means of quantifying which articles satisfy the deletionists' necessary condition of "...the interest of enough people" and which do not.

Given that, deletionism is inherently biased towards maintenance of status quo topics – which, in my concerned opinion, is antithetical to our continued accumulation of knowledge as a species. Unfortunately, at least with respect to open-source software, the deletionists have won.

The War on Open-Source

I can hardly count the number of open-source projects with Wikipedia pages that either were successfully deleted or are currently flagged for deletion. The reason why is simple: Wikipedia's notability requirements for software articles are sufficiently draconian that effectively no open-source software meets them. These requirements can be synopsized by the following catechism:

If Google books, Google news, and Google scholar yield no hits for your project, your article will be deleted.

Then let us query:

  1. Is ConEmu sufficiently complex to require the publication of for-profit dead-tree books disseminating its use?
    • No, of course not.
  2. Is ConEmu sufficiently mainstream to incentivize the scrutiny of for-profit mass media television or newspaper outlets?
    • No, of course not.
  3. Is ConEmu sufficiently academic to warrant the publication of for-profit peer-reviewed papers formalizing its theory?
    • No, of course not. (Yes, Elsevier and related academic publishers are highly profitable. Let us ponder the ethicality of privatizing a common good payed for purely by taxpayer dollars. But I digress.)

Of course, few to no open-source projects ever have or will meet such ludicrous eligibility requirements.

The size of your userbase is irrelevant. The number of daily downloads, frontpage hits, blog posts, or tech articles vis-à-vis your project is irrelevant. All that matters to the garden-variety Wikipedian is: "Do members of the for-profit intelligentsia profit from and therefore formally discuss your work in a publicly monetized setting?"

If not, you're going to have a hard time. Hence, open-source software has a hard time. Hence, Wikipedia has become effectively castrated with respect to open-source software.

On the bright side, nature abhors a vacuum. By ceding all of the informational territory on open-source software to the vacuum of /dev/null, Wikipedia has made it trivial for competitors with less rigidly doctrinaire policies to capture their readership. (Let us pray to Stallman this happens soon.)

tl;dr

Due to a dysfunctional culture of fundamentalist zealotry, Wikipedia fails with respect to open-source software. There's little to nothing we can do about that. Best of luck, Maximus5 and cohort.

leycec commented Aug 22, 2015

Let's do this.

An Ideological Divide

In the early 2000's, an ideological spectrum referred to by the two antipoles "deletionism" and "inclusionism" erupted on Wikipedia. Ironically, this bitter feud received sufficient media attention to be included in Wikipedia:

"Deletionists" are proponents of selective coverage and removal of articles seen as unnecessary or highly substandard... Deletionists favor objectivity and conformity, holding that "Wikipedia is not Google," a "junkyard," or "a dumping ground for facts." They argue that the interest of enough people is a necessary condition for article quality, and articles about trivial subjects damage the credibility and future success of Wikipedia. They advocate the establishment and enforcement of specific standards and policies as a form of jurisprudence.

"Inclusionists" are proponents of broad retention, including retention of "harmless" articles and articles otherwise deemed substandard to allow for future improvement... Inclusionists may argue that the interest of a few is a sufficient condition for the existence of an article, since such articles are harmless and there is no restriction on space in Wikipedia. Favoring the idiosyncratic and subjective, an inclusionist slogan is "Wikipedia is not paper."

Observe the use of such words as "conformity," "enforcement," and "jurisprudence" in describing deletionists. But what sort of human might be attracted to words like that?

The Deletionists Have Won

Yes, that sort.

To paint with an admittedly wide brush, deletionists are both fundamentalist and conservative (in every categorical sense of those adjectives); inclusionists are not. Since spoken language is inherently subjective, however, there exists no unbiased means of quantifying which articles satisfy the deletionists' necessary condition of "...the interest of enough people" and which do not.

Given that, deletionism is inherently biased towards maintenance of status quo topics – which, in my concerned opinion, is antithetical to our continued accumulation of knowledge as a species. Unfortunately, at least with respect to open-source software, the deletionists have won.

The War on Open-Source

I can hardly count the number of open-source projects with Wikipedia pages that either were successfully deleted or are currently flagged for deletion. The reason why is simple: Wikipedia's notability requirements for software articles are sufficiently draconian that effectively no open-source software meets them. These requirements can be synopsized by the following catechism:

If Google books, Google news, and Google scholar yield no hits for your project, your article will be deleted.

Then let us query:

  1. Is ConEmu sufficiently complex to require the publication of for-profit dead-tree books disseminating its use?
    • No, of course not.
  2. Is ConEmu sufficiently mainstream to incentivize the scrutiny of for-profit mass media television or newspaper outlets?
    • No, of course not.
  3. Is ConEmu sufficiently academic to warrant the publication of for-profit peer-reviewed papers formalizing its theory?
    • No, of course not. (Yes, Elsevier and related academic publishers are highly profitable. Let us ponder the ethicality of privatizing a common good payed for purely by taxpayer dollars. But I digress.)

Of course, few to no open-source projects ever have or will meet such ludicrous eligibility requirements.

The size of your userbase is irrelevant. The number of daily downloads, frontpage hits, blog posts, or tech articles vis-à-vis your project is irrelevant. All that matters to the garden-variety Wikipedian is: "Do members of the for-profit intelligentsia profit from and therefore formally discuss your work in a publicly monetized setting?"

If not, you're going to have a hard time. Hence, open-source software has a hard time. Hence, Wikipedia has become effectively castrated with respect to open-source software.

On the bright side, nature abhors a vacuum. By ceding all of the informational territory on open-source software to the vacuum of /dev/null, Wikipedia has made it trivial for competitors with less rigidly doctrinaire policies to capture their readership. (Let us pray to Stallman this happens soon.)

tl;dr

Due to a dysfunctional culture of fundamentalist zealotry, Wikipedia fails with respect to open-source software. There's little to nothing we can do about that. Best of luck, Maximus5 and cohort.

@oldmud0

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@oldmud0

oldmud0 Aug 22, 2015

Wikipedians do not have that kind of attitude to every form of OSS.

Take 7-Zip, for instance. Yes, CNet, ZDNet et al. have talked about it (you make it sound as if CNN needs to cover this too), but another criteria that makes 7-Zip notable is its historical value. It is a 16-year-old graphical file archiver made by the same person who made the 7z file format and the LZMA compression algorithm. It is notable because it is a clear open-source competitor to RAR.

However, one thing that ticks me off about Wikipedia is how admins often override voting (ex. everyone can say "no" in a close discussion and the admin will say "yes" and delete it anyway), and how deleted articles cannot be recovered. Instead you have to go in there right before it's deleted, salvage the article, and bring it back to userspace.

oldmud0 commented Aug 22, 2015

Wikipedians do not have that kind of attitude to every form of OSS.

Take 7-Zip, for instance. Yes, CNet, ZDNet et al. have talked about it (you make it sound as if CNN needs to cover this too), but another criteria that makes 7-Zip notable is its historical value. It is a 16-year-old graphical file archiver made by the same person who made the 7z file format and the LZMA compression algorithm. It is notable because it is a clear open-source competitor to RAR.

However, one thing that ticks me off about Wikipedia is how admins often override voting (ex. everyone can say "no" in a close discussion and the admin will say "yes" and delete it anyway), and how deleted articles cannot be recovered. Instead you have to go in there right before it's deleted, salvage the article, and bring it back to userspace.

@timothystewart6

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Aug 23, 2015

Owner

It's a "blog" someone may says... blogs are not good sources as W.rules say. Really strange as for me.

Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 23, 2015

It's a "blog" someone may says... blogs are not good sources as W.rules say. Really strange as for me.

@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Aug 23, 2015

Owner

Anyone is welcome to discussion Articles for deletion/ConEmu with facts and evidences.

Also, contribution to the artice itself is appreciated. Rewrite as prose? Make it more academic?

Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 23, 2015

Anyone is welcome to discussion Articles for deletion/ConEmu with facts and evidences.

Also, contribution to the artice itself is appreciated. Rewrite as prose? Make it more academic?

@daniel-rikowski

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@daniel-rikowski

daniel-rikowski Aug 24, 2015

Would creating an article in a different language help?

Related: ConEmu was mentioned in print in one of the largest computer magazines in Germany.(http://www.heise.de/ct/ausgabe/2013-9-Systemwartung-per-Kommandozeile-2323785.html (paywalled))

daniel-rikowski commented Aug 24, 2015

Would creating an article in a different language help?

Related: ConEmu was mentioned in print in one of the largest computer magazines in Germany.(http://www.heise.de/ct/ausgabe/2013-9-Systemwartung-per-Kommandozeile-2323785.html (paywalled))

@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Aug 24, 2015

Owner

@daniel-rikowski Different language articles are interesting, but they wouldn't help this exact issue about english article.

Thx for the link.

Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 24, 2015

@daniel-rikowski Different language articles are interesting, but they wouldn't help this exact issue about english article.

Thx for the link.

@BYK

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@BYK

BYK Aug 25, 2015

May be we can get an article on SmashingMagazine?

BYK commented Aug 25, 2015

May be we can get an article on SmashingMagazine?

@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Aug 25, 2015

Owner

It would be nice I believe. But who will write it? I'm not sure about this magazine and it's authors. Is it community work?

Owner

Maximus5 commented Aug 25, 2015

It would be nice I believe. But who will write it? I'm not sure about this magazine and it's authors. Is it community work?

@BYK

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@BYK

BYK Aug 25, 2015

It's this: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/

They have a "coding" section and we can submit articles there explaining ConEmu and how it would benefit people working on Windows. I'd suggest showing them ConEmu + PowerShell or ConEmu + Xonsh

BYK commented Aug 25, 2015

It's this: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/

They have a "coding" section and we can submit articles there explaining ConEmu and how it would benefit people working on Windows. I'd suggest showing them ConEmu + PowerShell or ConEmu + Xonsh

@mikemichaelis

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mikemichaelis

mikemichaelis Aug 26, 2015

Fails WP:PRODUCT - does not apply to ConEmu - see Notability (organizations and companies)

Simply stated, an organization is a group of more than one person formed together for a purpose. This includes commercial and non-commercial activities, such as charitable organizations, educational institutions, hospitals, institutions, interest groups, social clubs, companies, partnerships, proprietorships, religious denominations, sects, etc.

This guideline does not cover small groups of closely related people such as families, entertainment groups, co-authors, and co-inventors covered by WP:Notability (people).

Regardless, we just need to put some attention into the article.

I found ConEmu a few weeks ago and have fallen in love with it. I'm doing a lot of GStreamer work and I like the ability to quickly move between console windows and have both Cygwin and PS windows open also. It is also amazing to put Notepad into a tab and use it for command editing. Makes my life with command line work a million times better.

I actually found ConEmu off an article talking about PowerShell (forget the topic) but it referenced an article written by Scott Hanselman about ConEmu

I see somebody referenced the Hanselman article above with link. I'm leaving the reference anyway.

mikemichaelis commented Aug 26, 2015

Fails WP:PRODUCT - does not apply to ConEmu - see Notability (organizations and companies)

Simply stated, an organization is a group of more than one person formed together for a purpose. This includes commercial and non-commercial activities, such as charitable organizations, educational institutions, hospitals, institutions, interest groups, social clubs, companies, partnerships, proprietorships, religious denominations, sects, etc.

This guideline does not cover small groups of closely related people such as families, entertainment groups, co-authors, and co-inventors covered by WP:Notability (people).

Regardless, we just need to put some attention into the article.

I found ConEmu a few weeks ago and have fallen in love with it. I'm doing a lot of GStreamer work and I like the ability to quickly move between console windows and have both Cygwin and PS windows open also. It is also amazing to put Notepad into a tab and use it for command editing. Makes my life with command line work a million times better.

I actually found ConEmu off an article talking about PowerShell (forget the topic) but it referenced an article written by Scott Hanselman about ConEmu

I see somebody referenced the Hanselman article above with link. I'm leaving the reference anyway.

@majkinetor

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@majkinetor

majkinetor Aug 26, 2015

Why do we care honestly? Wikipedia editors are notorious toward non-mainstream-whatever-in-any-domain and they quickly categorize many things as frindge. I was editing wikipedia before and no matter how good references were I stood no chance against admin editors - depending on the page in question the writings can be reverted in a matter of minutes.

majkinetor commented Aug 26, 2015

Why do we care honestly? Wikipedia editors are notorious toward non-mainstream-whatever-in-any-domain and they quickly categorize many things as frindge. I was editing wikipedia before and no matter how good references were I stood no chance against admin editors - depending on the page in question the writings can be reverted in a matter of minutes.

@sbrl

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@sbrl

sbrl Aug 26, 2015

It's probably not going to help, but what if we try to fix the other issues with the article instead, if we can't meet the notability requirements? It looks like the notability requirement isn't the only issue with the article.

sbrl commented Aug 26, 2015

It's probably not going to help, but what if we try to fix the other issues with the article instead, if we can't meet the notability requirements? It looks like the notability requirement isn't the only issue with the article.

@DraTeots

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@DraTeots

DraTeots Aug 26, 2015

I'm not sure if this could help, but here is a good review in Russian in one of the largest (or the largest) online IT journal in Russia.
http://habrahabr.ru/post/164687/

Update.
Oops... Ok... The author is Maximus5...

DraTeots commented Aug 26, 2015

I'm not sure if this could help, but here is a good review in Russian in one of the largest (or the largest) online IT journal in Russia.
http://habrahabr.ru/post/164687/

Update.
Oops... Ok... The author is Maximus5...

@fatso83

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@fatso83

fatso83 Aug 26, 2015

Why care at all? This article has very little content that is interesting for anyone. It's basically a product page. I don't think anyone will miss it, but that does not make ConEmu any less good.

fatso83 commented Aug 26, 2015

Why care at all? This article has very little content that is interesting for anyone. It's basically a product page. I don't think anyone will miss it, but that does not make ConEmu any less good.

@DraTeots

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@DraTeots

DraTeots Aug 27, 2015

Why care at all? As an example I was struggling with cmd for years. And even when ConEmu was already in play, I couldn't find it by googling like "cmd replacement" for a long time. So I appreciate as much information about ConEmu over internet as possible. Weight of the wiki and wiki pages nowadays is awesome. It is free. Why should ConEmu loose it?

DraTeots commented Aug 27, 2015

Why care at all? As an example I was struggling with cmd for years. And even when ConEmu was already in play, I couldn't find it by googling like "cmd replacement" for a long time. So I appreciate as much information about ConEmu over internet as possible. Weight of the wiki and wiki pages nowadays is awesome. It is free. Why should ConEmu loose it?

@fatso83

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@fatso83

fatso83 Aug 27, 2015

If finding ConEmu is the problem, then better focus on SEO-optimization of the homepage so that Google can find it. Wikipedia is not a hack for SEO.

fatso83 commented Aug 27, 2015

If finding ConEmu is the problem, then better focus on SEO-optimization of the homepage so that Google can find it. Wikipedia is not a hack for SEO.

@DraTeots

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@DraTeots

DraTeots Aug 27, 2015

That relates to what I mean. I'm not a SEO expert in any kind but have heard that being referenced by sites like Wiki or Stackoverflow is very good for SEO.

I agree with you in terms that deleting Wiki article isn't killing the project. At the same time I recalled my long forgotten wiki account and tried to help. If many community members will try to help, the page, probably, will not be deleted. Why not? )

DraTeots commented Aug 27, 2015

That relates to what I mean. I'm not a SEO expert in any kind but have heard that being referenced by sites like Wiki or Stackoverflow is very good for SEO.

I agree with you in terms that deleting Wiki article isn't killing the project. At the same time I recalled my long forgotten wiki account and tried to help. If many community members will try to help, the page, probably, will not be deleted. Why not? )

@codewarrior0

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@codewarrior0

codewarrior0 Aug 28, 2015

For what it's worth, I followed @leycec here because he's a funny guy, and now I'm using ConEmu as a replacement for conhost.exe. (It handles the ANSI codes in the output of py.test when running from Git Bash! Joy!)

So uh, I probably wouldn't have discovered ConEmu if its article hadn't been flagged for deletion. How about that?

codewarrior0 commented Aug 28, 2015

For what it's worth, I followed @leycec here because he's a funny guy, and now I'm using ConEmu as a replacement for conhost.exe. (It handles the ANSI codes in the output of py.test when running from Git Bash! Joy!)

So uh, I probably wouldn't have discovered ConEmu if its article hadn't been flagged for deletion. How about that?

@mikemichaelis

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mikemichaelis

mikemichaelis Aug 28, 2015

I agree with DraTeots, it is worth putting effort into and keeping the article. Letting it go simply because some people don't see any immediate need is irresponsible, or well, lazy.

mikemichaelis commented Aug 28, 2015

I agree with DraTeots, it is worth putting effort into and keeping the article. Letting it go simply because some people don't see any immediate need is irresponsible, or well, lazy.

@Maximus5

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@Maximus5

Maximus5 Sep 3, 2015

Owner

Thanks to all participants.

Owner

Maximus5 commented Sep 3, 2015

Thanks to all participants.

@Maximus5 Maximus5 closed this Sep 3, 2015

Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment