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Add @place to <head> #1466

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dariok opened this issue Jun 10, 2016 · 7 comments
Closed

Add @place to <head> #1466

dariok opened this issue Jun 10, 2016 · 7 comments
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@peterstadler
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Guidelines 3.2.0

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@dariok
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dariok commented Jun 10, 2016

This has already been discussed as issue #479 but since it is closed and had been assigned to Sebastian, I assume nobody read my comment. So I have decided to open a new issue on this and elaborate on this a bit further as regards @place in <when>.

Issue #479 asked to include @place in <head> and <seg> which was turned down by the council.
In my opinion, the council's suggestion

that out-of-sequence <head> and <seg> (which is what we suggest @place conveys) does not make sense

is plain wrong. In early prints and manuscripts, placing a heading in the margin is quite common. Especially in early prints, even alternating freely between a heading marked by a special rendition, an inline heading (maybe or maybe not a bit larger) and a heading in the margin is entirely possible.

If you kindly consider example 1, you'll see that the first text functioning as a heading (Prima Conclusio) is placed inline, while the other (Secunda Conclusio) is placed in the margin.
(I chose this example as both inline and marginal placement are visible here. There are other instances in this and other texts making it clear that these information indeed serve to indicate a regular partitioning of the text, in this case between different opiniones and resolutiones).

Now there's two possibilities.

  1. I maintain that these two are headings, tag them as <head> and either a) have to completely discard the information about the actual placement of the text or b) have to resort to @rend, which in my mind is not the right attribute as I think it is quite obvious that if a distinction is made between rendition and placement, these are two completely distinct phenomena.
  2. I want to encode the placement, for which @place gives me the right vocabulary. Then, I have to resort to <label> which I indeed find a very unfortunate solution as the guidelines say that a <label> is attached to »a paragraph or sequence of paragraphs not treated as a structural division«[1] (4th example) – and indeed is defined in section 3.7, Lists – which here is not the case.

From the definition quoted in 2), I think that <label> is best used to denote text (maybe placed in the margin but possibly just rendered differently) that is to indicate the topic or contents of (a part of) the paragraph[2] (note that these are typically not aligned with the beginning of the paragraph but further down where the actual topic or idea is conveyed).
For this, cf. example 2 where the lower two, uppercase, marginalia denote the topic discussed.

<head> on the other hand is explicitly defined as containing »any type of heading, for example the title of a section,« (and is defined in section 4.2.1 Headings and Trailers) which seems to me to be a lot more appropriate than <label>. Note that a text considered to be a heading is usually aligned with the top of the paragraph (as seen in example 1).

As both solution 1 and 2 are unsatisfactory and do not reflect the reality of early prints and manuscripts as shown in the examples, I request to reconsider adding @place to <head>.

Furthermore, it might be necessary to clearly distinguish the functions of <head> and <label> currently defined

<head> (heading) contains any type of heading, for example the title of a section, or the heading of a list, glossary, manuscript description, etc.

vs

<label> contains any label or heading used to identify part of a text, typically but not exclusively in a list or glossary.

as discussed above.

Best,
Dario

[1] Which, to my mind, is quite odd or even mutually exclusive with the main definition as paragraphs might well be considered the standard structural unit between something like a chapter and a sentence and usually are formed to group sentences which are combined to convey an idea. But this might well go to far.
[2] Which is also supported by the word label itself.
@lb42
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lb42 commented Sep 27, 2016 •
edited by ebeshero

Subgroup agrees that @place is a more useful attribute in this case than @rend. The example is persuasive and we'd like to steal it for the Guidelines.

@ebeshero
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@dariok Thank you! We'd like to use your example in the Guidelines: Can you post the source information?

@dariok
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dariok commented Sep 27, 2016

@ebeshero, @lb42 Thank you for considering the example.

The heading in margine from example 1 is encoded as

<div type="subsection">
    <head place="margin">Secunda conclusio</head>
    <p>
        <lb n="1251"/><hi rend="large">Potencia: habitus: et actus: recipiunt speciem ab obiectis<supplied>.</supplied></hi>
        <lb n="1252"/>Probatur sic. Omne importans necessariam habitudinem ad proprium
        [...]
    </p>
</div>

This will be in http://diglib.hab.de/edoc/ed000216/texte/002/002_transcript.xml from early next year (available under CC-BY-SA).

If you need anything else, please let me know.

@lb42
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lb42 commented Sep 27, 2016

Could you provide a bibliographic ref for the source doc

@dariok
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dariok commented Sep 27, 2016 •
edited

Certainly.

The print is

Karlstadt, Andreas Bodenstein von:
Distinctiones Thomistarum [...], Wittenberg: Johannes Rhau-Grunenberg, 1507.

(full description available via http://opac.lbs-braunschweig.gbv.de/DB=2/FKT=1016/FRM=url%2Bdiglib.hab.dedruckeed000364start.htm/IMPLAND=Y/LNG=DU/LRSET=1/SET=1/SID=15abb9ff-0/SRT=YOP/TTL=1/LNG=EN/NXT)

edited as

Distinctiones Thomistarum, ed. by Harald Bollbuck (KGK 2)

as part of

Kritische Gesamtausgabe der Schriften und Briefe Andreas Bodensteins von Karlstadt, Teil I (1507–1518), ed. by Thomas Kaufmann et al.,
Wolfenbüttel 2012–
http://diglib.hab.de/edoc/ed000216/start.htm

That's the long version; something like

Karlstadt, Andreas Bodenstein von:
Distinctiones Thomistarum, Wittenberg 1507 (ed. by Harald Bollbuck), in: Kritische Gesamtausgabe Karlstadt I, http://diglib.hab.de/edoc/ed000216/start.htm

might be more comprehensive, though. Feel free to include what you need.

peterstadler added a commit that referenced this issue Feb 4, 2017
@peterstadler
made head member of att.placement
2f9ccd9 
and added example and citation #1466
@peterstadler
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ok, in the run up to the TEI Council meeting in Praha I finally managed to implement the requested change. Please have a look at the current dev version for <head> and try the appropriate tei_all.rng dev schema

Please let me know if there's anything I missed or got wrong!

@peterstadler
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No one complained in the last two weeks, so closing the ticket.

@hcayless hcayless added this to the Guidelines 3.2.0 milestone Jul 8, 2017
This was referenced Nov 13, 2023
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